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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Bro Phiologos
I have a few questions;

Quote:
I don't think this has any of the characteristics of prostrations recorded at times of revival. There the emphasis was God-consciousness and a sense of overwhelming unworthiness. In the modern phenomena we have convulsions, spasticity and a focus on the event that doesn't sound at all healthy to me.



Could it be that the difference in the manifestation of the spirit's arrival is because the spirit is coming to do a different work apart from revival? I acknowledge that some people may focus on the event but really our concern should be what happens with the people AFTER all this? What is it that you find unhealthy? The convulsions themselves or us focusing in on that aspect of things?

Quote:
I have moved in these circles and am not afraid of these events, but I would never seek them. Nor would I visit a place where they are 'likely' to happen. I have also seen the phenomenon used to manipulate crowds and individuals.



Of course people use such things to manipulate others and that is not different than people misinterpreting the bible (for example) for their own profit. God knows all and sees all. I did not seek this or ask God for it, He just let it happen. Since then God has shown me much.

At the end of the day this is something which one would have to experience for oneself if God wills it. What we should do as brethren in addition to asking questions is to hold one another up in prayer lest we fall into the snares of the enemy.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/10 21:57Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

I must say I am most impressed with how this whole discussion has progressed as it pertains to just everyone being honest about this from their point of view.

Still am wondering if there is something maybe different about the approach. Meaning that in the instances here that have been shared are we talking about something 'orchestrated'? In the usual sense of lining people up, the forehead shove and having the catchers in place, etc. Would be curious as to how the events unfolded.
That sounds worse than is intended as it applies here, but largely this is what is practiced. The church I once attended even went so far as to have these purple shrouds made up to cover the 'victim's' with. Even in my confusion then it just put a pit in my stomach, what does any of this have to do with the Lord? I thought.

I still will err on the side of caution as Ron pointed out, having a Biblical basis is so critical in our day and age especially with so much really bad theology about and people seeking after the wrong things for the wrong reasons, a focus on the event as Ron put it.

Yet, yet, I know it seems like I want to keep talking out of both sides of my mouth, it is very difficult to get around Jeff's comments about his friend. But maybe that is really besides the point here, instead of making this either a proof of or a disproof of, a validation or a non-validation ... will let Jeff finish it;

Quote:
As I began this thread, remember I said I was discipling him. Now he is discipling me. He keeps talking about the simple faith. And I know in my heart, I have not submitted to my Lord 100%. I see a simple man before me with demonstration of power. I have known a thousand Christians in my eight years of walking with God, none like this man.



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Mike Balog

 2005/1/11 0:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi ironman

Quote:
Could it be that the difference in the manifestation of the spirit's arrival is because the spirit is coming to do a different work apart from revival? I acknowledge that some people may focus on the event but really our concern should be what happens with the people AFTER all this? What is it that you find unhealthy? The convulsions themselves or us focusing in on that aspect of things?

It might well be as you say. I would then want to know what it was the Spirit was doing. What is it that I find unhealthy? The presumption that a work of the Spirit with such phenomena is ‘better’ than a work of the Spirit without such phenomena. In other words the ‘sign’ aspect of this.

I am really not at all against physical consequences of spiritual experience. I have experienced such things personally. The concern is that the physical phenomena is often reported as a proof of such spiritual experience rather than a consequence. This is my personal objection to the doctrine of tongues as the initial physical sign of Baptism in Spirit; [i] The baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance. Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths [/i] I say again, I am all [u]for[/u] any physical consequences of The Baptism, but I oppose the view that these consequences provide some kind of proof whereby the authenticity of the experience can be guaranteed.

The ‘proof’ of the Baptism is a transformed life, not physical phenomena. Physical phenomena can be counterfeited by human, psychological, physiological, and demonic behaviour. Ah, some will say but their lives were changed that proves the authenticity of the being ‘slain in the Spirit’. No it doesn’t; it proves the authenticity of the spiritual encounter. Let me illustrate; suppose we have two people who respond to the Lord at the same time. One has physical phenomena, the other has none. Both go on to evidence that God has worked powerfully in their lives. It is no more logical to say that the spiritual growth proves the validity of the physical phenomena than it is to say the spiritual growth proves the validity of no physical phenomena. When Oswald Chambers received the Spirit there was no physical phenomena, but his life was transformed. Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence or absence of physical phenomena proves nothing. At this point we need to be honest with ourselves and say ‘am I more impressed by signs than no signs?’

Again, let me say it, I am not arguing for ‘no signs’. I am saying we need to think carefully about what we think these signs are showing us. Let me illustrate again; If in seeking the Spirit the seeker becomes agitated, and I’m not saying he should not, he may begin to breath rapidly. This is not a spiritual experience but a natural event. If he breaths rapidly he will begin to hyperventilate. The effects may be varied; he may become dizzy, or experience tingling in his limbs. In extreme cases he may pass out or show signs of rigidity in his limbs. He may have what appear to be enhanced states of consciousness. Now these ‘may’ just be the physical consequences of his rapid breathing. They are no ‘proof’ of anything.
The Christian and Missionary Alliance position relating to physical phenomena was classically expressed as ‘forbid not, seek not’. I think there is a simple but profound wisdom in that phrase.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/11 3:45Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
I am really not at all against physical consequences of spiritual experience. I have experienced such things personally. The concern is that the physical phenomena is often reported as a proof of such spiritual experience rather than a consequence. This is my personal objection to the doctrine of tongues as the initial physical sign of Baptism in Spirit; The baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance. Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths I say again, I am all for any physical consequences of The Baptism, but I oppose the view that these consequences provide some kind of proof whereby the authenticity of the experience can be guaranteed.



As I see it God does what He pleases as He pleases. Lately I have found that God has done some things that have completely turned upside -down some of the ways in which I thought he worked. When some are baptised with the spirit they speak in tongues and some do not.I agree that physical manifestations are not proof in every instance of a baptism in the Holy Spirit. At the end of the day what is spirit does not profit the flesh anything and the flesh does not understand nor know what the spirit is doing. The spirit is at work constantly and yet we are not always aware of it.
Quote:
The ‘proof’ of the Baptism is a transformed life, not physical phenomena. Physical phenomena can be counterfeited by human, psychological, physiological, and demonic behaviour. Ah, some will say but their lives were changed that proves the authenticity of the being ‘slain in the Spirit’. No it doesn’t; it proves the authenticity of the spiritual encounter. Let me illustrate; suppose we have two people who respond to the Lord at the same time. One has physical phenomena, the other has none. Both go on to evidence that God has worked powerfully in their lives. It is no more logical to say that the spiritual growth proves the validity of the physical phenomena than it is to say the spiritual growth proves the validity of no physical phenomena. When Oswald Chambers received the Spirit there was no physical phenomena, but his life was transformed. Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence of absence of physical phenomena proves nothing. At this point we need to be honest with ourselves and say ‘am I more impressed by signs than no signs?’


It is true that people can fake it for whatever reason. We must also always remember that what God does with someone's life may not be what we expect it to be. The individual may not necessarily to big things for all to see but rather some of or much of the work may be in the spiritual realm itself which we can't see of which there may be manifestations that we are not aware of.

Quote:
The Christian and Missionary Alliance position relating to physical phenomena was classically expressed as ‘forbid not, seek not’. I think there is a simple but profound wisdom in that phrase.



I think the above makes sense. I think to seek such an experience is a sham in order to appear more righteous than others because we put give more weight to such experiences. God will deal with and use us as He deems fit and we should always remember that.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/11 8:40Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
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 Re:

Am always truly thankful when someone can come along and unravel my own ramblings, I picked up a line from Chip Brodgren the other day about 'developing a vocabulary' in spiritual things, guess often what everyone sees here is a child's attempt at learning how to write and it often gets sloppy.

The night I finally 'gave in'? if I could put it that way...more sloppiness coming....In all honesty it was a crying out in and from the depths of my debauchory.."Lord, where did I go" a lyric that's playing in my head and at the same time unwilling to let go.."Yes, Lord I want to give up my life to you', "No, I don't want to give up my sin"...I wanted both and to be delivered at the same time...Yes/No, Yes/No, Yes/No.. Lying on my bed with tears pouring down I "felt" this warmth course through my veins that filled me with a peace that is undescribable...and I was still saying 'No...Yes'...

Stranger still, that was not the first time, can still recall two or three other times maybe a year before where the same thing happened. The difference there was I flatly refused, 'No, I cannot' "become a Christian" a [i]real[/i] Christian, "I am not ready yet"... It was just as real and beautiful an 'experience', but I was not willing to give up my sin... am reminded of "Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Meaning that all the proof in the world, an experience, an 'event', doesn't necessarily translate into a transformed life.

Quote:
Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence of absence of physical phenomena proves nothing.



Again, thanks Ron for better spelling out what I wanted to express. And that is for the whole of what you wrote here, not just the excerpts.


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Mike Balog

 2005/1/11 10:25Profile
tedlock
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Joined: 2004/1/7
Posts: 25
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 Re:

"Slain in the Spirit" is not found in the New Testament
One of the Fruits of the Spirit is SELFCONTROL - which is quite contrary to falling down, trances and paralisys.
Remember when Jesus said to His disciples "you know not what spirit you are of"
There are alot of spirits out there that are not the Holy Spirit, you need to be careful who you allow to layhands on you.
You cannot follow a man because he has a big shiny successful looking ministry.
If you have not read thru the New Testament yourself (putting aside all denominational filters) and let the Holy Spirit to teach you all things that are true and not a lie (1 John 2:26-27) and obey everything that it says (which is how we recieve the Holy Spirit Acts 5:32), then you are only basing your salvation on what a man has taught you and have no assurance of salvation but recieved a lie that will have you standing before Jesus on last day saying Lord Lord we prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name and preformed many miracles in Your name and He will say to you 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7:21-23

Repent (surrender your will and take up Gods will), Get ROOTED in the New Testament (Read the New Testament at least 7 times), Obey everything it says. You are not doing this for your own benefit but to serve the "Author of Life" because He is worthy to recieve the rewards of His sufferings.

Mark 8:34-38 34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37"For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

Love in Christ


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Jim

 2005/1/11 23:41Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:

"Slain in the Spirit" is not found in the New Testament
One of the Fruits of the Spirit is SELFCONTROL - which is quite contrary to falling down, trances and paralisys.
Remember when Jesus said to His disciples "you know not what spirit you are of"
There are alot of spirits out there that are not the Holy Spirit, you need to be careful who you allow to layhands on you.



Self-control in what sense? behavior? Didn't John eneter a trans-like state when he was shown the various visions he saw described in the revelation? I have experienced this and I'm learning that the workings of God are FAR more complicated than I ever imagined. He can do as He pleases whether we agree with it or not. In my experience when the spirit communicates with God and depending on the type of communications compells the body to do certain things. If the spirit is grieving with God my body does bow over and a groanings and sounds of weeping come from my mouth so that I am aware on some level of what is going on. If the spirit is rejoicing then my body position changes and so do the sounds that come with that. The spirit is not something we can control for it's works are far more wondrous than we can ever imagine, rather we should let it control us.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/12 7:24Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

One of the men my friend led to the Lord this past week has liver cancer. This cancer had progressed to the point where this man had begun taking morphine to relieve the pain.

Last Sunday this man sought the Lord and the church prayed for a healing. The testimony is this thus far. The man stopped taking morphine that day. There is no pain. For two days this man was extremely tired and lifeless. By Wednesday he began to gain strength. The effects of the morphine which is an addictive drug began to subside.

The church is continuing in prayer and fasting for this man. My friend believes that God will heal this man, and together they will testify of the good news to the people in the streets of Little Siagon in Southern California.

As this story continues, it reminds me of the book I just read about another faithful man, Brother Yun. Is there a coincidence? Or is God testifying of Himself, not only to those in China, but here in Little Siagon.

We shall see in the times to come.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/14 11:45Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

My friend just gave me a dvd that records his experience. I have not had time to review it yet.

Secondly, my friend shared his testimony in a Vietnamese Baptist Church in San Diego this past weekend. The congregation asked him to come back to speak again. Afterwards, the pastor pointed out to my friend that he needs to join the real church. The pastor sighted 1 Corinthian 13:8 as the proof that the sign gifts are not for today's church.

So far, the brother with liver cancer has not had anymore pain. The church continues to fast and pray for his healing.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/19 16:02Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

1Ki 8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

Jhn 18:5-7 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

Here a few instances in the Bible when men could not stand because of the presence of the Lord. I agree with some of the replys i have read that there is alot of false manifestations going on.. people pushing others just to look like they are "falling out" or something. When I was converted and turned to the Lord it was during a "gospel singing" those of you from southern US know what im talking about :) . In the middle of the concert the lead singer of the group pointed at me and not knowing my name or ever having seen me before said "God is working on you today". I was in utter shock that this man pointed me out and i had no idea why he would do this. They went on to the next song and the song was called "That's God". During that song the conviction came so heavy on me I was crying so hard I was shaking uncontrolably. I could not even move at all my parents asked me if I wanted to go to the alter. I dont think i even really responded... I really dont remember. But they had to carry me, i couldnt even walk. The night before I partied alot and was selling dope at the time. I was deleivered from that that day and got rid of all that i had after church. Not that having a manifestation means anything more when someone gets saved but that is what happened to me. I hope this helps.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/1/19 18:00Profile





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