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todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Greetings

Greetings all,
I am so impressed witht his site. Thank you so much whomever is responsible. It is definately the best one I have seen on the web. I am especially impressed with the amount of Wilkerson and Ravenhill sermons. Also Duncan Campbell. I am so excited and already listened to tons of sermons. The STaff Picks are also very impressive. I am especially thankful to see Jim Cymbala's sermon "Calling on the Name of the LORD" offered there. That sermon changed my life about 6 months ago when i first heard it. I am wondering who you are (whoever is running this site), what church you are a part of (in TOronto), and if you have been involved in the "blessing". This is a very interesting subject for me but touchy for some so i understand if there's no response to those inquiries.
by the way, i am 22, am currently living in Santa Barbara in southern California, and just graduated from Westmont College a week and a half ago.

 2003/5/14 18:18Profile
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 Re: Greetings

Hi Todd,

Thanks for all your praise and feedback!! Yes as you do I love ravenhill, campbell, wilkerson, and cymbala! Also jim cymbala's message on Prayer blessed me in a very special way about 2 years ago :-D

here are the answers to some of your questions..

i- I am wondering who you are (whoever is running this site)?
My name is Greg Gordon, I am 24 years old and am currently running this site myself with some volunteer help.

ii- what church you are a part of (in TOronto)?
I go to Knox Presbyterian church www.knoxtoronto.org and I have been a member there for about 5 years. I do go to other churches occasionly such as People church (currently charles price is the pastor there :-) )

iii- and if you have been involved in the "blessing"?
This is a pretty big subject :-? I am guessing you are refering to the Airport Christian fellowship? I would love to talk to you more about revival and movings of God, it would make intresting discussion.

please post back and I am looking forward to hearing from you again.


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 2003/5/14 19:09Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I understand the "Toronto Blessing" (yes, in connection with the airport fellowship) is a very large subject. I keep bumping into it when I am trying to see what God is doing toady, right now. Not that I am sure the "blessing" was of God, that's is obviously up for debate, (although I am leaning towards it's legitamacy at least in part).
What tends to happen is I hear about or see someone who seems to be moving in a powerful way with God and, almost inevitably, they have some connection to the "blessing." Either they were a part of the fellowship, they were largly influenced by someone that was, or they visited and got touched by God in some way.
Initially I was very bitter and opposed but that was a while ago when I think I had a more shallow understanding of love and a contentious spirit. Since I began to be more loving (which, by the way, has connections to the "blessing") I have seen it in a different way. But I am still not sure and haven't been as concerned about it for awhile. but it still interests me and would like to hear your thoughts about it.

 2003/5/15 19:01Profile
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Its kinda funny, I have never been to the airport fellowship even though I live so close. I have watched it on tv for awhile, and I started to get into it and wanted to watch it everyday. One morning I turned it on and I saw the pastor and he had a flashlight in a womans mouth and he was like praise God!!

I was puzzled :-? why was he looking into her mouth and being so happy about it!

Then he said she has three... no four. then he said who else wants this blessing, and he started to pray for God to touch mouths so that peoples fillings would turn to gold :-(

I was shocking and mad at the same time, Acts 3:6 "Peter said, 'Silver or Gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." How can the God that tells use to store up treasures in heaven be the god that was turning Christians fillings into Gold to bless them? :-x its erroneous and just because they have passion and a thrill for God does not mean that they are more spiritual. be weary brothers of false deceivers.

I am not saying the whole charismatic or vineyard church is false but oviously there are weird and unholy things happening at that place. I have alot of other stories to tell but I will stop.. let me know what you think, I am trying my best to get my feeling across on this issue.


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 2003/5/16 0:20Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks for that testimony. Here's what worries me from your response. You are taking a verse and applying it in a certain way to fit the situation, at least it seems so to me.
Just because Peter did not have silver of gold doesn't mean that silver and gold are evil necessarily, right? ANd just because God tells us to store up treasures in heaven doesn't mean He doesn't want to abundantly supply for our needs here necessarily.
it seems like you are judging unrighteously to me, by appearance. Like you said, you've never even been there yourself to test the spirit, to ask questions.
Here's what you must do in order to be fair and just in your judgement. You must ask why they did whatever it is they did that bothered you. my guess is that the answer may shock you and humble you. Why do you assume the intention was to use the gold for something other than God's kingdom? Why be so unloving and unbelieving?
Now I know you said you had other stories, but I must ask you if you have confronted anyone about it, or if you are just holding on to these things. Why not ask someone from the fellowship about it with an open mind and see what they have to say. start a dialogue and go from there. then, after you have invested your time and have looked at the situation in fairness, perhaps then you might consider making a judgement that may be just. Do you agree with what i am saying here? Perhaps I am wrong about just judgement.
Perhaps you have spoken with some people from there and their answers were unsatisfactory to you. i would like to hear about that.
honestly, you better have darn good and fair evidence to say that "it's erroneous." but i am not sure if you were referring to the whole movement there or just the gold filling thing.

 2003/5/16 11:52Profile
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Yes brother you are right, please dont take me to be close minded and judgemental. But I feel that Gods spirit has beared witness with my heart that there is falseness in the movement, so I have not had the urge from the Holy Spirit to even take the 45 minute trip to go there! ;-). I am not trying to take the verse out of context but I cant lie in saying that I think I am using it properly. (but I appreciate your opinion and would like to hear more)

I have spoken quite abit to a few people that have gone there. But I am firmly against the prosperity movement in Christianity these days. Please listen to this audio sermon (its quite short) that totally talks about this situation:

[url=http://www.therevivalweneed.com/xoops/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2]Another Gospel - by David Wilkerson[/url]

let me know what you think of the audio? :-D


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 2003/5/16 12:39Profile
todd
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 Re:

Ok. I listened to the sermon you offered. He wasn't messing around, was he?
I think it's dangerous to use terms like "prosperity gospel" too much and I know it's dangerous to use it so generally. It's like saying "Christianity." That is, who knows what you are talking about? There are many distinctions within it (according to some, although everybody thinks they are right and that there is no distinctions and everyone else is just wrong).
But you see what I am saying? It's like saying "Perfectionism." You can connect people like Finney and Wesley to that term and uneducated and lazy thinkers will then automatically turn from their teachings if they have been told Perfectionism is wrong or evil or both. But the term has so many distinctions, many of which are probably off. Take any term you like. Pentacostal, Methodist, Calvanist, Catholic, they all have numerous distinctions and there is no simple answer. The lazy thinker says, "Thet're wrong" but when asked to explain they probably only have some evidence of proof texting they have done. But do they understand the other side? Have they been fair minded? They tend to make hasty generalizations I think. I see the same danger with using the term "prosperity gospel" in connection with anyone who has wealth. It is one thing to preach and teach that Jesus came for the main purpose of making us rich, it's quite another to preach the gospel with correct motives and happen be rich. I have never seen in the Bible where it says its a sin to have an abundance of wealth. Let's not press our own convictions on people just because it seems right to us, that is unless God tells us to (but we better be careful and sure of that, that is, we better know His voice and Spirit very well).
This brings me to my next point. By your own admission you feel yourself to be a babe in Christ (in Ravenhill forum), and yet you hold that God bore witness with your heart and that you were able to discern the fallacy of the "Toronto Blessing" movement. That is a serious thing and I can't say definately but you might want to reconsider and reassess the situation. Could you have been deceived? Scared? Uncomfortable, and therefore come to fleshly and unrighteous conclusions?
I still challenge you to go there and ask around and see what answers you get from people that attend. See what they have to say about that Scripture in Acts and how you understand it and how they can then justify the gold filling thing (if they can). I would be very interested to hear! And then you could understand their perspective on it and judge righteously. I can't say whether or not you are applying the text correctly, I can only say that it doesn't seem clear to me, and so in love (hoping all things/giving the benefit of the doubt) I am going to reserve judgement. And it may or may not become clear to me ever in my life and that's fine, if God doesn't lead me to dig into it then why would I? There's plenty of other things to dwell on, right?
I acutally emailed the church the other day to see what they might say but no reply yet. I will keep trying. This can now be a very interesting and fruitful study I think. They must have some answer, right? What could it be? I am hoping I can start a dialoge with someone that goes there. We'll see what happens.
My final point. I know that it's a very dangerous thing to believe something for the reason that someone you really like and trust and respect believes it (i.e. Wilkerson and prosperity). By the way, do most people connect the Toronto movement with the prosperity gospel? I honestly am curious and don't know.
Here's a bomb for you (that you might have already heard), I just heard Ravenhill say that he didn't agree with how Wilkerson interpreted some scripture in revelation. That's a big deal! Or is it? Even those two, so closely knit in belief and purpose it seems, didn't agree.
Let's walk very carefully here, because if the Toronto movement is of God...

 2003/5/18 19:33Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think it's dangerous to use terms like "prosperity gospel" too much and I know it's dangerous to use it so generally. It's like saying "Christianity." That is, who knows what you are talking about? There are many distinctions within it (according to some, although everybody thinks they are right and that there is no distinctions and everyone else is just wrong).


I really dont think it dangerous to use this term epecially if its an epidemic in Christianity! Wilkerson said in the audio sermon:

[b]"They have come to act like the Lords most enlightened ministers, they sound just like the preachers of the gospel, they freely use the name of JESUS, they speak of righteousness, they use the scripture, they heal the sick in the Lords name, but the message is not of God! its another gospel, its a deception its of the flesh and its not of the spirit.[/b]

[b]Come on christian! wake up, are you and I being decieved have we been trapped into the teachings of an angel of light from satan?, get into Gods word!!! and hear the true gospel of Jesus, and begin to check what you see and hear![/b]

I am not saying that the toronto airport is practising this gospel, but the 'prosperity gospel' or the 'gospel of gain' as wilkerson termed it is spreading and at large in the Christian church in North America!

I would encourage you to listen this this message again and determine if he is speaking the truth.
[url=http://www.therevivalweneed.com/xoops/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2]Another Gospel - by David Wilkerson[/url]

Quote:
That is a serious thing and I can't say definately but you might want to reconsider and reassess the situation.


Brother, I have travailed over this much! it saddens me that much of the Christian church is being misled in these last days. I feel more and more even after I listened to this MESSAGE by wilkerson that I am ashamed that I have not been more bold against this! I know God has borne witness in my heart what the true gospel of Jesus and we shouldnt settle for less just because a movement or church carries the name of Christianity!

Quote:
My final point. I know that it's a very dangerous thing to believe something for the reason that someone you really like and trust and respect believes it (i.e. Wilkerson and prosperity).


I dont agree with wilkerson on everything! but on this topic he is right on :-D

Quote:
I still challenge you to go there and ask around and see what answers you get from people that attend.


I will pray about this and see how God leads me into this situation.


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 2003/5/18 20:27Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Fair enough.
I listened to Wilkerson's message again and I can't determine if it's true or not at this point. I think this stuff takes time. I would have to hear someone who preaches this "prosperity gospel" give a defense. They read their Bible, right? How do they respond to Wilkerson's attack? I have heard it preached, for example, that "blessed are the poor in spirit",etc., is talking about being contrite, lowly. I can't see how this applies to material things. This is a perfect example of proof texting. Wilkerson didn't even finsish the phrase but just used the chunk that backed his point. That kind of thing puts up big warning signs for me. He also said, "THe rich man went to hell, the poor man went to heaven." Yes, that was true in that story, but that doesn't mean that is how it is for everyone. Because doesn't that imply that we should try and be poor to get to heaven? That seems off for sure.
As far as abundant life, I have often wondered if that was meant for now or later but I have never heard it preached as later until this sermon by Wilkerson (and I happen to think he is right, and that others who say it's now may be right as well, but it's not so simple as just now or then). I think it's fair to say that Paul had abundant life here on earth. That is, a full life. But it's in a different sense. What do you think about that?
Basically i think Wilkerson may be right about what he's saying but i don't know who it applies to. I think some people might be labeled as preaching this "properity gospel" that might have good intentions. I have often thought that God is so pleased to see some real faith that He is blessing those that are asking for material goods to shame to the faithless who are bitter because they don't have faith. But I am definately not convinced of that either.
But I have to keep in mind that there is the possibility of a false humility going on. God may be telling these preachers to preach what they know... that God is faithfull to bless and fulfill all your needs if you have faith, because they have experienced it. I can't judge at this point. Far from it I think.
And to be honest, it doesn't concern me that much. I am going to try and do what God is telling me to do now and at this point it's definately not cracking down on the rich folk. But once again, I am a child I think and maybe i'm just not ready for it.
I also realized that you never said the TOronto movement was false, you just said that you thought that there is "falseness in the movement." SOrry about that. My bad. I better be more careful too.

 2003/5/18 23:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
As far as abundant life, I have often wondered if that was meant for now or later but I have never heard it preached as later until this sermon by Wilkerson



:-o whoa.. this is totally what God has been showing me way before I even heard about wilkerson. God as I have been growing in Him shown me small truths slowly at first.. i.e. Everything we own is His we are just taking care of it (like the parable of the talents for example)

Quote:
Basically i think Wilkerson may be right about what he's saying but i don't know who it applies to.


I dont think the application is necessary the truth of what he is saying is potent and valuable enough to glean from.

Quote:
But I have to keep in mind that there is the possibility of a false humility going on.


I totally agree with this, as I refered to before that there are preachers who have a show of godliness but it is false.

Matthew 7:22,23
[b]Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miricales?" Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers![/b]

Here is a quote from a website that talks about the false trend in Christian circles (I think that the prosperity gospel is tied abit in to speakers mentioned here):
Quote:
The fastest growing segment of professing Christianity in recent years has been among churches connected with the Positive Confession movement or Word-Faith movement (all part of the modern Charismatic movement). It has involved two distinct but closely related factions: the Norman Vincent Peale/Robert Schuller Positive-Possibility thinkers/Positive Mental Attitude, with their roots in New Thought; and the Kenneth Hagin/Kenneth Copeland Positive Confession and Word-Faith groups, which have their roots in E.W. Kenyon, William Branham, and the Manifest Sons of God/Latter Rain movement. Well-known names among its leaders are E.W. Kenyon, Charles Capps, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Frederick K.C. Price, Robert Tilton, and David [Paul] Yonggi Cho. It does not yet constitute a new denomination, but it certainly represents innovative teachings outside of mainstream Christianity. The situation is so serious now because of the dominance over the so-called Christian media achieved by the teachers of Positive/Possibility Thinking and Positive Confession.



[b]The situation is so serious now because of the dominance over the so-called Christian media[/b] - this fact has troubled me much and that is why I have essentially started this website to offer christian media to the world amongst entense barrage of false teachings readily available. If you go to the [url=http//www.wrtbooks.com]www.wrtbooks.com[/url] website (that is my ministry and this site: SermonIndex is part of that ministry) there is a verse at the top of the page from Jeremiah 5:30,31 check it out :-o kinda explains the situation in christianity these days.

Another thing that has recently grieved my heart is on [url=http//www.streamingfaith.tv]www.streamingfaith.tv[/url] which is an online christian tv site. Which I would have to say 90%+ dominated by the Word-Faith movement, prosperity ministries. By the way I phoned them and asked how much it would be to have a tv show on there network and they said it would cost $100 for one 30 minute show once a week for a month I think! I would love to get the ravenhill videos on there but I would need support from partners forsure: [url=http://www.ministrysoft.com/site_builder/display_page.asp?site_id=42&page_id=173&m=1]Help Support WRT Books[/url]


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 2003/5/19 1:05Profile





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