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dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: jochbaptist

Hi Brother,

You wrote:
"I think you are referring to what happened to the household of Cornelius here."

No, rather I was thinking of the families of Crispus, Lydia, Stephanas, and the Philippian Jailor.


You wrote:
"This does not leave much room for justifying, or condoning Infant baptism, as far as I see it."

I understand you dear Brother. I once believed as you do too. However, after studying this issue for myself, I was faced with the facts as well as the ambiguities, and I just couldn't justify either judging others who believed differently or continue to divide Christ's Body over this issue anymore.

Even if we yet disagree, I hope you too will at least extend some grace to those (back throught the centuries and up until now), who do believe on the Lord Jesus but were baptized as infants.

Thanks for taking the time to write. I appreciate it.

Be well,
Doug

 2011/12/2 13:22Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Doug

I know this is perhaps just a little off topic but my issue with baptizing infants is the potential for parents to believe their children are now saved and going to heaven because they had them sprinkled with water. I have seen this happen in my own family. The idea that a child who was baptized as an infant, grows up and lives in complete rebellion to the LORD but is still considered saved is a lie. Sadly, very sadly I have seen this happen so I do really struggle with this. The results can be disastrous.

I realize that their are parents out there who will do their best to raise their children in the LORD but if that child departs and goes their own way its a lie to let the parent believe the child is saved because as a baby they were baptized.

Anyway just thought I would share as this topic touches very close to home and heart for me.

God bless
mj

 2011/12/2 13:44Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: MaryJane

Dear Sister,

You said:
"Anyway just thought I would share as this topic touches very close to home and heart for me."

Oh yes... absolutely Ma'am. I totally understand where you are coming from here. That is definitely a danger. This makes me think though...

If you have seen much of what I write, you will notice that sometimes the concept of "reactionism" comes up. This is what I have in mind when I mention this:

There is a saying: "For every mile of road, there are two miles of ditch." When one studies the history of the Church, and the history of doctrine, one sees a continual struggle between different groups in the opposite ditches. One group, who believes one thing, displeases another group, who then "react" so strongly that they take the opposite position, in the other opposite ditch...

Meanwhile, the ones up on the road, who just try to take the Scriptures literally and at face-value, are attacked by BOTH the opposing groups in the ditches... Ironic and sad, yet instructive, if one thinks about it.

Here is an example of why the concern you mentioned, (and I share with you), must not be allowed to move us from the Scriptures, either off to one side, or the other.

In the Old Covenant, all males were circumcised on the eighth day. We know this is true. Many of them trusted in their circumcision later in life, even though the Law and the Prophets warned them to repent and believe in God for their salvation instead. We know this is also true.

Question: What was the inspired solution? Was it to get rid of the practice? No.

The solution was not stopping circumcising. The solution was the "Sh'ma Israel". And this has not changed. Let all Christian Parents do this and trust in God for their children, whether they baptize them, or not.

"Hear, O Israel!: The LORD our God is one LORD!:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

And thou SHALT TEACH THEM DILIGENTLY UNTO THY CHILDREN, and shalt talk of them WHEN THOU SITTEST IN THINE HOUSE, and WHEN THOU WALKEST BY THE WAY, and WHEN THOU LIEST DOWN, and WHEN THOU RISEST UP." Deuteronomy 6:4-7


And who, dear Sister, is sufficient for these things? Either to carry out this monumental task, or to trust God for their little souls? OH GOD, OH GOD! Save our children! And have mercy on us for the multitude of our faults in attempting to raise them for THEE!

May the good Lord bless our children, and save EVERY ONE. Amen

Love in Christ, dear Sister.
Doug

 2011/12/2 14:21Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re: CATECHISM FOR YOUNG CHILDREN

Did anyone Notice why Brother Greg is posting the Catechism for CHILDREN now? May be there is something happening in his life that is connecting to Children now. I am just positing something randomly!!!!!


_________________
Sreeram

 2011/12/2 14:38Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 292


 Re:

Dough,

Though I feel like I am trying to defend the fact that water is wet, and I do not really have time to enter into an exchange with you on this, it is unfortunately "part of" one of the 6 basic Doctrines and for us to be divided on a basic doctrine is grievous. So I briefly answer this for the sake of someone who might have been affected by your post.

I, for one can not walk in unity with someone who do not submit to a Baptism that follows AFTER saving faith, and done by being fully IMMERSED UNDER water. Since Baptism encapsulates both the 2nd Basic doctrine, and the first of the 3 Mysteries (Sacraments). "Those (back through the centuries" had less light on the issue than we now have. Now there is no excuse for being deceived by this lie from Satan.

You wrote:
No, rather I was thinking of the families of Crispus, Lydia, Stephanas, and the Philippian Jailor.

Acts 18:8 And CRISPUS, the chief ruler of the synagogue, BELIEVED on the Lord WITH all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 16:14. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Acts 16:15. And when she was baptized, and her HOUSEHOLD, ....
- There is NO proof that I can see, that states that she was married, or had children.

Cor 1:16 And I baptized also the HOUSEHOLD of Stephanas.....
- He was the first fruits of Achaia, another case where (after a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit) a whole household was saved at once after hearing and believing.

Acts 16:31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32. And they SPOKE unto him the word of the Lord, AND TO ALL THAT WERE IN HIS HOUSE.
Acts 16:33. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed [their] stripes. And immediately he and all his [family] were baptized.
Acts 16:34. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having BELIEVED IN GOD WITH ALL HIS HOUSEHOLD.
- no comment.

I'm sorry but I can't say this in any other way.

Joch


_________________
J Kruger

 2011/12/5 8:31Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: jochbaptist

Dear jochbaptist,

Thank you for taking the time to write again. You are concerned that people could have been swayed by the things I wrote. I understand your concern. I have some more thoughts however...


1. An “argument from silence” is a logical fallacy. Just because very young children aren’t mentioned doesn’t mean they are not there. It is therefore impossible for your arguments to "prove" anything.

Consider this too if you will:


2. Even though our Lord Jesus said:

“...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.“ (John 3:3,7)...,

NOT EVERYONE has to be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven! (Not everyone has to be born again to go to Heaven. - added for clarity.)

Can you see how this can be? If you can, then you will also understand the second reason that your arguments cannot possibly "prove" your assertions.

Finally, jochbaptist, if baptism after believing (by immersion-only no less), is so absolutely necessary to your denomination and therefore to yourself, then you must damn not only the early Christians who were made disciples from the time of their birth, but you must also damn me.

Dear Brother, please reconsider.

Be well in the Good Lord,
Doug

 2011/12/5 12:16Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 292


 Re:

Hi Doug

I don't want to take this any further.

Thank you for your gracious demeanor through all this. In that area, you are an example to me.

Blessings

Joch


_________________
J Kruger

 2011/12/5 15:07Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: jochbaptist

Dear Brother,

Quote:
"I don't want to take this any further."

I understand my friend.

You know..., what a GLORIOUS DAY it will be, when the Lord returns and all of the things that have hindered our fellowship will vanish away in the BLINDING GLARE of HIS GLORIOUS FACE...

...unspeakable.

Quote:
"Thank you for your gracious demeanor through all this. In that area, you are an example to me."

Oh no dear Brother, you have been the gracious one. I appreciate you.

Be well today,
Doug

 2011/12/5 17:20Profile





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