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nuhope
Member



Joined: 2011/11/17
Posts: 1


 Hello everyone, I'm new

Hi just wanted to introduce myself, I am a born-again Christian who wants to meet like-minded Christians. I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ became a sin on the cross and I do not believe that the Father turned His back on Him, was reading some interesting posts here re this and would like to hear from others who believe as I do, thanks.

 2011/11/17 22:04Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re: Hello everyone, I'm new

Hey nice to meet you nuhope,

My name is Evangel Tam.
hmm you might find it hard to find Christians here who do not believe that Jesus did not become sin on the cross and that the Father did not turn His back on Him.

Can I ask where you came to these conclusions from scripture?

Evangel

 2011/11/17 22:07Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 253
Bruceton TN

 Re: Hello everyone, I'm new

Welcome to the forum nuhope. I don't write much either. Christ was our sacrifice, our substitute. Someone had to pay for our sins with blood. Christ did. Those that refuse him will likewise have their blood spilled outside the camp also, as we see in Rev 14:17-20. I think this stems from Genesis 9: 1:6.

As for the part 2 of your question concerning the father turning his back on him: Since he did take our place, if he didn't die for our sins we would be like those in Rev 14. We too would have been forsaken like it says in Matt 27:46. Jesus experienced being apart from his Father for a while. There was a cost to our redemption.


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James R Barnes

 2011/11/17 22:27Profile
sermonindex
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:


Welcome to the SermonIndex website, may God bless you as you benefit from these free resources offered. If there is anything I can help you with please let me know. Here are some recommended audio resources that have blessed many and might be something for you to first take a look at:

Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282

The Revival Hymn by Various Speakers
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2903

Judgment Seat of Christ by Leonard Ravenhill
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=235&commentView=itemComments

His and His Alone by K.P. Yohannan
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=21381&commentView=itemComments


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/11/17 22:40Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Hello everyone, I'm new

Welcome to the forum nuhope.

I agree with what you have written.

You said:
"I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ became a sin on the cross"

Like in many other similar passages in the Old Testament, the word "sin" is alone in the passage below. The word "offering" does not exist in Hebrew. It is supplied by the translators because of the sacrificial context.

Exo 29:14 "But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a 'sin' [offering]."

Paul, as "an Hebrew of the Hebrews", and formerly "zealous of the Law", was certainly well aware of the usages of words in the Old Testament. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, he wrote using the word "sin" in the same sacrificial context, but the translators failed to supply the implied word "offering"

2Co 5:21 "For he hath made him to be [a] 'sin' [offering] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

You wrote:
"I do not believe that the Father turned His back on Him"

I agree as well. The Father never turned his back on the Lord Jesus. They were working together. This can be clearly seen in the psalm that our Lord was quoting while upon the cross. It tells us exactly what the Father's attitude was towards His stricken Son in verse 24:

Psa 22:24 "For HE hath NOT DESPISED nor ABHORRED the affliction of the afflicted; NEITHER HATH HE HID HIS FACE FROM HIM; but when he cried unto him, HE HEARD."

Be well,
Doug

 2011/11/17 23:24Profile
joliboy11
Member



Joined: 2011/9/16
Posts: 207
Philippines

 Re: Hello everyone, I'm new

welcome to SI, thank you for SI for sermons like these,



2Timothy 2:16 But shun profane, vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.

 2011/11/18 7:23Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

Hey dietolive,

What translation of 2 Corinthians 5:21 are you using?
Because I looked up multiple translation and they are all along the lines of

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The meaning is very different

Also

Would Jesus crying out
Father Father why have you forsaken me be a clear indication that God did in fact turn away from Christ in that hour and that His wrath was poured out on Him?

also Is 53:10

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.


Lastly I think your interpretation of Psalm 22 is wrong
In this passage it is the Psalmist who is talking that God will not forsake him because Christ will be forsaken

And yes this passage also talks of Christ
In the end he was not forsaken cuz God raised HIm from the dead!

In Christ
Evangel

 2011/11/18 11:39Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: EvangelTam

Hi Brother,

You asked:
"What translation of 2 Corinthians 5:21 are you using?
Because I looked up multiple translation and they are all along the lines of

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The meaning is very different"


I am using the old King Jamese Version here.

Yes, if the word "sin", in its sacrifical context, was translated consistently in this passage, the meaning would be different. In the Old Testament, as I showed in my previous post, the hebreisism for a sacrificial "sin offering" was simply the word "sin."

But let me ask you, dear Brother, if we went with the literal translation of the word "sin" alone, and ignored the context, what would it teach us about the old testament sacrifices? Did the animals that were sacrificed in those days, bulls and goats and birds, become actual "sin"? Or were they actually "sin offerings"? What does this hebreisim that Paul uses in II Corinthians 5:21 actual mean?

You ask:
"Would Jesus crying out Father Father why have you forsaken me be a clear indication that God did in fact turn away from Christ in that hour and that His wrath was poured out on Him?"

Dear Brother, the Holy Trinity was never divided, but was united in carrying out the mission of the Cross.

Our Lord Jesus was quoting the Messianic Scriptures from the Cross, specifically Psalm 22. When He cried out “My God, my God!, why hast thou forsaken me!”, He was speaking from the perspective of the man prophesied of in that Psalm. A “man” who knew no sin, yet a man who was being crushed for ALL SIN... Certainly, from man’s perspective; from the perspective of those who heard His majestic voice and beheld His shattered form, He truly was forsaken by God.

Yet, if we carefully read the rest of the Psalm, we found out that from the Spiritual perpspective, God the Father NEVER forsook the SON of HIS love. Please read it again. Awesome and sublime thought. The mighty and effectual work of the Cross, planned before the foundation of the world was laid, was carried out in full unison, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, working together in a “Mystery”: in the mystery of GOD HIMSELF, manifest in the flesh...


Dear Brother, if you do not agree, then it must be fine with me. I thank you for taking the time to reason with me.

Be well,
Doug

 2011/11/18 12:13Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re: Doug

Brother Doug with all respect,

Let me understand you clearly, you are saying that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins but God did not put our Sins on Jesus? Correct me if I am wrong.

Can you please explain me what this Cup that was bothering Jesus causing him agony.
Luke 22-42:-
“Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. And being in agony He was praying very fervently.

Galatians 3-13:-
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A [v]TREE”—

So what is your view on Christ becoming a curse for us when he was put on the cross?


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Sreeram

 2011/11/18 12:35Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Sree

Hi Brother Sree,

You ask:
"Let me understand you clearly, you are saying that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins but God did not put our Sins on Jesus?"

No Brother. I am saying that Paul is teaching us in this passage, that like the Old Testament sacrifices, Jesus Himself was a sacrifice for our sins, but His once, for all, for ever "sin offering", (unlike theirs in the OT), actually MAKES US righteous.

I accept that the opposite view, that when Paul writes the term "sin", he does not mean "sin offering" (like it means in the Old Testament that Paul read), but rather that Jesus somehow became "sin" as far as God is concerned. is believed by many today since the time of the Reformation. So be it. Let there be peace among us.


You ask:
"Can you please explain me what this Cup that was bothering Jesus causing him agony.
Luke 22-42:-
“Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. And being in agony He was praying very fervently."

The Cup was a metaphor for the Just Wrath of God against the sin of the world. The Man Christ Jesus knew He was going to have to "drink" it.


You ask:
"So what is your view on Christ becoming a curse for us when he was put on the cross?"

My view is that Christ, according to the Law of Moses, (as "contained in ordinances") was to be considered "a curse."

Be well Brother,
Doug

 2011/11/18 12:54Profile





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