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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 144 000 Sealed- Who are They? Literal or Symbolic?

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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri


Evangel: One could ask the same question of the letter to the Hebrews. The things that James wrote to the 12 tribes or the things that (Paul?) wrote to the Hebrews were all inspired of the Holy Spirit and were written to believers. We must remember that although the original recipients were of Hebrew descent (which makes a lot of sense since the church began in Jerulsalem) they were born again believers no more or less than you or I and the things God inspired were not written specifically to Jewish people but rather to Christians who just happened to be of Jewish descent. So, because they are inspired they are canonized. We cannot make the mistake of thinking that Jewish Christians are somehow different than Gentile Christians.


 2011/11/23 14:04Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010

 Re: 144,000 firstfruit virgins

"How do you account for this description that they - 144,000 - are the 'first fruits' for God and the Lamb?"

James 1:18 Of his own will he hath begotten us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.

First-fruits in James is the same as the word used in Rev.14:4 These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits to God and to the Lamb.

And James writes, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. James 1:1

First-fruits is the same word used in the following verses:

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epenetus, who is the first-fruits of Achaia to Christ.

1 Cor. 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints.

"These were also 'virgins'."

2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy, for I have espoused you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins.

molunō in Greek is translated defiled in Rev. 14:4 and is
used in NT of those who have not kept themselves pure from the defilements of sin, who have soiled themselves by fornication and adultery (Thayer).

Matthew 25:1-4 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Not having spot in Eph. 5:27 above is the same as not defiled in Rev. 14:4. Again pure or chaste in Rev. 14:4 is the same as without blemish here in Eph. 5:27.

 2011/11/23 17:24Profile

Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA


hi, so my question is addressed to savannah, but if others have an answer please respond as well =)

if we look at revelation 7, it seems to make two distinctions: earth vs heaven and israel vs the nations

Revelation 7

1AFTER THIS I saw four angels stationed at the four corners of the earth, [a]firmly holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind should blow on the earth or sea or upon any tree.(A)
2Then I saw a second angel coming up from the east (the rising of the sun) and carrying the seal of the living God. And with a loud voice he called out to the four angels who had been given authority and power to injure earth and sea,
3Saying, Harm neither the earth nor the sea nor the trees, until we have sealed the bond servants of our God upon their foreheads.(B)
4And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000.
5Twelve thousand were sealed (marked) out of the tribe of Judah, 12,000 of the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 of the tribe of Gad,
6Twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, 12,000 of the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh,
7Twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 of the tribe of Levi, 12,000 of the tribe of Issachar,
8Twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 of the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 of the tribe of Benjamin.
9After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
10In loud voice they cried, saying, [Our] salvation is due to our God, Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb [to Them we owe our deliverance]!
11And all the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders [[b]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures, and they fell prostrate before the throne and worshiped God.
12Amen! (So be it!) they cried. Blessing and glory and majesty and splendor and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and might [be ascribed] to our God to the ages and ages (forever and ever, throughout the eternities of the eternities)! Amen! (So be it!)
13Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come?
14I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

the context set by versus 1-4 is earth and israelites
the context set by verse 9 is heaven and people of all nations
the context set by verse 14 are the people from verse 9

therefore, a distinction is being made

what are your thoughts on this?


 2011/11/23 19:33Profile

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