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EvangelTam
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Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?

Hello so I have done some research on this and come across two views

1. http://www.bibletruthonline.com/whoarethetwowitnesses.htm

Two come from out of heaven down to earth.

... Anyone that wants to harm them will be killed by fire that
comes out of their mouths.

These two have the power to call down every kind of plague
as often as they want.

Then the Beast comes up out of the Abyss and kills them.

They lay in the streets for 3-1/2 days...then the breath
of life from God enters them and a loud voice from heaven
says: "Come up here!"

Who are these two witnesses??

Question: Can you kill an angel?

Answer: NO!

Question: Which two people who live BEFORE Jesus have not
died yet?

Answer: ENOCH & ELIJAH

2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that
suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and
seperated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind
into heaven.

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

IT IS APPOINTED FOR ALL MEN TO DIE ONCE!

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this
the judgement.

The Two Witnesses who were taken into heaven have to be brought
back into this world to die.

The Two that were taken into heaven were Enoch and Elijah.
THEY ARE THE TWO WITNESSES!

Thats so crazy like ENOCH who was almost from the very beginning of creation (7th genration) and Elijah!

Elijah is like super he got to be transfigured with Christ and he gets to be one of the two witnesses!

2. http://www.gci.org/bible/rev/2witnesses

thoughts on this?
I am more inclined to the first one YOO ENOCH COMING BACK TO PROPHESY COMMON SOO SICKEEE

 2011/11/15 15:00Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?

Quote:
EvangelTam wrote:
thoughts on this?
I am more inclined to the first one YOO ENOCH COMING BACK TO PROPHESY COMMON SOO SICKEEE


Nice non-argumentative topic!! (hehehe) To me, a non-scholar, the first one makes more sense!! Personally speaking, I believe Revelation 20 will happen literally, so logically, I have to believe the two witnesses will be literal as well:

Quote:
And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 11.7-10



God bless, I’m sure you’ll get much more in depth responses!!
Lisa


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Lisa

 2011/11/15 15:39Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?

I think scripture gives us not clear evidence that would lead us to believe they are symbolic, so I believe they are literal men. I think circumstantial evidence seems to point to Enoch and Elijah, but it is definitely not spelled out clearly.


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Travis

 2011/11/15 15:59Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1426


 Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?


hi evangeltam,
Can I firstly say that it does not say that the two witnesses come from heaven to earth.
It only says that they are translated back to heaven alive.
The two witnesses are two literal people but are also a movement.
It is easy enough to recognise Elijah as one of the two but the other requires study and insight.To my understanding although the enoch and elijah and moses and elijah views could be argued they are incorrect.
To understand who the second witness is you have to understand clearly why the other witness is Elijah.This would involve studying Kings and the 42months and even if you study it unless its enlightened by the Holy Spirit you will not understand it like all scripture.I do believe the answer is there but I belive it is not either Moses or Enoch.


The Two Witnesses
1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies ; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying ; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.


yours staff

 2011/11/15 18:26Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1426


 Re:

Hi Evaneltam,
May I just add that if the two witnesses are symbolic,how can they die?And the writer explains who the two witnesses are by using symbols ie lampstands and olive trees,why would he use symbols to explain symbols?no he was using symbols to explain real literal people,yours staff

 2011/11/15 18:31Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

yeah you make a good point

``Revelation had already introduced the martyr Antipas of Pergamum (2:13). He was called a "faithful witness" and was a representative of the church as a whole who had remained true to Christ's name. Perhaps that is the sense in which we should understand the two witnesses.

It seems possible, then, to explain the two witnesses as symbols of the witnessing church. Certainly, that was the role of the church in the days of the apostles. Based on the commission given by Jesus, that responsibility remains the continuing role of the church until "the very end of the age" or his return (28:19-20). In the words of Robert W. Wall: "The two witnesses symbolize the entire worshiping community which bears collective witness to God and to God’s Christ" (New International Biblical Commentary, "Revelation," p. 150).``

From what I understand from the article the witnesses die because ofr persecution....

 2011/11/15 18:42Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?

I agree with the others: these are real people, but their names are not given. Their ministry will be very spectacular: they can spit fire out of their mouth that devours their enemies; they have power to inflict droughts; turn water into blood; smite the earth with all kinds of plagues...fearsome men, indeed! Then the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit will make war with them and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street for 3 1/2 days and then they will resurrect and ascended to heaven! Now this will be BIG news for mankind to ponder! But before they gloat too much a huge earthquake will rattle them in which 7000 men will be killed. AND it says the remnant gave glory to God! WOW! Beats anything we have ever seen!


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Sandra Miller

 2011/11/15 18:46Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

what is really interesting is that in the NT age before this time there has not been any OT like```judgement`` miracles such as fire from heaven, blood turning into water etc. as seen in the OT accompany anyone`s ministry but rather ``grace`` miracles such as healings, resurrections though there was Ananias and Sapphira and Bar Jesus being blinded with dark mist.

I believe this is because Jesus was supposed to bring life with turning water into the New wine where as the law through Moses brought death with the water turning into blood

 2011/11/15 19:03Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1426


 Re:

Hi Evangeltam,
Elijah was "head of the school of the prophets";in this sense it will be a corporate body but not symbolically in reality.How could the entire worshipping community die?like it says in revelation,yours staff

 2011/11/15 19:11Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

yeah thats true it is a bit of a stretch, thanks for your input

but while were on the topic of the two witness verse 3 simply says "and I will grant authority to my two witnesses and they will prophesy for 1200 and and 60 days clothed in sack cloth"

any idea of how these witnesses will come on the scene?
apppearing in Spirit with sackcloth?
coming back in the chariot of fire? (porbably not doesnt say so in the passage)

Surely not born out of the womb again?
If they are Elijah and Enoch it could not be a Spiritual annointing like John the Baptist

will they have a ministry and part of the church at the time or will it be separate? Will they eat are they normal people?

They wont just be in jerusalem will they?

Sorry I think that the "left behind" series has really given me preset ideas that I dont think are correct so Im rethinking everything.


last question what does the temple mentioned in the previous passage have to do with the witnesses?

just throwing things out there...

I am actually studying revelation right now. I have questions on the 144 000 witnesses I'll post that later

thanks for the input so far it really helps!

In CHrist
Evangel

 2011/11/15 21:36Profile





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