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EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

I listened to the Keith Daniel sermon the whole thing and it's actually REALLY GOOD sermon when you listen (not watch :P). You can hear the clapping but it isn't distracting as when you watch him.

His main point is both "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" exist in the Bible (he spend most of his time proving both) and that God has given us both because he cares about the SOULS OF MEN! If a man is unsure if his salvation, be a "Calvinist" as in use those Scriptures (in their true context of course) until you convince him he is absolutely saved and safe; but if there is a man who is sure of his salvation but living a life of willful sin, be an "Arminian" and point him to the Scriptures until he is sure he must repent.

And his last prayer was asking God to open our hearts and instead of loving a doctrine (which inevitably scratches out half the Scriptures), take the WHOLE BIBLE and LOVE THE SOULS OF MEN! Amen!

 2011/11/7 16:34Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

If a man is unsure if his salvation, be a "Calvinist" as in use those Scriptures (in their true context of course) until you convince him he is absolutely saved and safe; but if there is a man who is sure of his salvation but living a life of willful sin, be an "Arminian" and point him to the Scriptures until he is sure he must repent.




THis is 100% truth. This is what I shared in my post about Holy Spirit. But I tried to open the eyes of their heart by my effort instead of praying to God for opening it. I believe if a man is true to doing the will of God he will be able to accept the true teaching of Bible instead of falling to Theologies. It is interesting how men keep researching on theologies and put effort to understand them instead of taking effort to understand God. This shows their interest on created things than the creator. Man has always been a worshiper of created things starting with forbidden fruit, Golden Calf, money and even theology.

Paul had a ministry of both Evangelizing and building church. When he was evangelizing a church (or a group of people), who are not not sure about its salvation in Christ Jesus he talked to them as Calvinist. That is why he told Corinthians that they are still babies and they have to be fed milk instead of Solid food. And when the Church was mature and sure about salvation, he told them to work for their salvation now putting the deeds of their flesh to death with the grace of God. That is why there are verses in Bible which a Calvinist can never answer and there are verses which an Arminian can never answer.



_________________
Sreeram

 2011/11/8 10:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is interesting how men keep researching on theologies and put effort to understand them instead of taking effort to understand God.



Ummm... taking effort to understand God is the very definition of the word "theology". Thats what theology is.

the·ol·o·gy (noun, plural -gies)
"the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity."

sree, I think what you are saying is that sometimes people become convinced of a belief system (thats not what theology is!) and then attempt to smash that belief system into scripture... making scripture say something it doesnt mean.

If so... I agree!

Becoming more serious about my own studying of scripture is what lead me toward the theology and doctrines I cling to. I actually set out to proove wrong what I now believe with all my heart.

Quote:
he told them to work for their salvation



I have to correct you here. Paul never told them to "work for their salvation". That would negate the entire book of Romans. He told them to "WORK OUT" their salvation. If you're going to quote scripture please do it accurately because words mean something.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling...

Paul exhorted them and us to walk out our salvation. He said basically "Your saved! You've been set free... now walk it out! Live what you believe!"

He did not say "work for it". You'll have a hard time finding a non-Catholic commentary or teacher who would agree that this verse encourages us to work FOR our salvation, or that our labors or work brings about our salvation. On the contrary, the Bible says that your salvation brings about works! It's exactly the opposite!

If you want to work for your salvation go ahead. Let me know how that works out for ya! :-)

Krispy

 2011/11/8 11:22
Creation7
Member



Joined: 2011/8/16
Posts: 159


 Re:

I am not a Calvanist (sorry Krispy! :) ), though I do believe they have some good points.

I heard an interesting question recently-- "Did God predestinate that I would not be a Calvanist? If so, why are you trying to convince me of Calvanism?"

Lol, that's one way to look at it! :D

 2011/11/8 12:01Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

I have to correct you here. Paul never told them to "work for their salvation". That would negate the entire book of Romans. He told them to "WORK OUT" their salvation. If you're going to quote scripture please do it accurately because words mean something.



Brother Krispy,
Just to clarify, I have not quoted Philippians 2:12 in my earlier post at all. I said my interpretation of many verses collectively. I talked about Paul urging us to put the deeds of our flesh to death. Plus, I do not believe ‘work out’ is ‘live out’. Simply because if Paul did not ask them to live out were they about to commit suicide and die in salvation without living it? My logic is why should someone command people to live their salvation. Again I am not posting this to argue with you, just to justify my stand.
Philippians 2-16:-
holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

If you read Philippians more, Paul is asking the Philippians to hold fast the word so that they may not lose it and then cause all Paul's effort to go in vain. So there is a possibility of all Paul's effort to go in vain.

This is just a simple verse I posted here based on what you quoted. I can post many such verses but that is not the purpose of this thread. So for maintaining the purpose of this thread let us stop this discussion here.

Quote:

sree, I think what you are saying is that sometimes people become convinced of a belief system (thats not what theology is!) and then attempt to smash that belief system into scripture... making scripture say something it doesnt mean.



Yes you are right.


'Knowing God more' according to me is to apply what the bible says in one's life. If I read the word to prove my doctrine then where is the application? How will I ever know God if I stop applying them?

I stand by the point I made before, doctrines are manmade and that is why they have human names to it, glorifying themself instead of glorifying God.


_________________
Sreeram

 2011/11/8 14:02Profile









 Re:

Yea, thats ok... not trying to argue. I just dont agree with some things you say.

Quote:
I stand by the point I made before, doctrines are manmade and that is why they have human names to it, glorifying themself instead of glorifying God.



Of course you are referring to "Calvinism"... but believe it or not Calvin never put his name on it. The "5 points of Calvinism" did not even come into existence until well after John Calvins death. It was actually written out that way in response to refute the The Five Articles of the Remonstrants in 1610. Calvin died in 1564.

The only reason it is called "Calvinism" is because Calvin best articulated that particular theology best in his books "The Institutes of the Christian Religion".

Contrary to popular belief Calvin did not come up with some theology and then tag his name on it. He articulated what MANY churches and Christians had taught for centuries... and when someone tagged it with his name... he was already dead for 50 years.

And I usually dont refer to it as "Calvinism" anyway... I prefer to call it Biblical! :-)

(I bet I just made some folks howl with that one! lol)

Krispy

 2011/11/8 14:30
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Krispy you wrote: "He articulated what MANY churches and Christians had taught for centuries" He articulated what Augustine had trouble doing. That same theology didn't exist pre-nicene. Post nicene, that theology didn't gain much traction until the reformation. Russ

 2011/11/8 16:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
That same theology didn't exist pre-nicene. Post nicene, that theology didn't gain much traction until the reformation.



Yea, thats because the "church" slipped into Roman Catholicism. Thats what got traction.

But God always has a remnent and many among that remnent that always existed outside the Roman Catholic Church taught election... because the Bible teaches election.

Krispy

 2011/11/9 5:41
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Please be careful brethren. Let's not turn this into yet another cal/arm debate, thus negating the original intent of the opening post. We all know by now what happens to threads that take that path. Wisdom indicates that there is a fine line between edification and strife concerning this topic; a very fine line between I Tim. 4:16 and Titus 3:9.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2011/11/9 7:52Profile









 Re:

Actually I think this particular thread has been quite edifying... and uniting.

Krispy

 2011/11/9 8:42





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