| Re: |
After I posted this I got to thinking I never mentioned the spiritual aspect of submission - I focused on the practical, where the rubber meets the road.
Another poster suggested that submission to God should be foremost in the life of any couple. I agree. Both husband and wife needs to have a personal walk with the LORD. I cannot depend on my husband to be my savior because he did not shed his blood for me - only Jesus did that. I also cannot stand before the judgment seat of God and blame my husband for my failures and expect to be allowed into heaven. To serve my husband is an outgrowth of my serving God. Unfortunately, my husband is not God, but then I am not God either, so here you have two fallen creatures who are being changed from glory to glory and it can get difficult at times. But we have made a commitment to God and this is what we are responsible to and for, with God's help.
Yes, we as females must walk close to the LORD. We must have our private time with Him. Apart from that I am not sure we can even fulfill the task the LORD has set before us. It is a large one but one that can be done with the Holy Spirit empowering us.
(When my SIL left her husband, I asked my brother whether she was a Bible scholar. He said no...no surprise to me. Whenever a discussion of spiritual things came up she was always silent, had absolutely nothing to contribute. It is no wonder she succumbed to sexual immorality. She did not have the spiritual resources within to fight this temptation.)
When we submit to the LORD He will lead us in paths of pleasure and delight that the world cannot understand. They will look at us as being deprived and in bondage. When we work to fulfill our role in life as a female, then as a wife and mother, Proverbs 31 tells us that our husband will safely trust her. Think about that! What does that feel like? what are the practical implications of it? You can read the rest of Proverbs 31 and see what it looks like where the rubber meets the road...and I, as a woman who wears a head-covering, have heard many sermons by men, talks by other women based on this chapter.
(Are there abuses by males? by those in church leadership? Yes, it does exist, but not to the extent that one is forced to remain there - you can always move away from it. But this abuse of power is not limited to certain church groups, it happens everywhere. That is not the issue we are dealing with here.)
We are blessed and I wish this for all other God-fearing ladies.
| 2011/11/3 12:39||Profile|
| Re: |
I need one of you ladies to go make me a sandwich.
(for the "newbies" here... that was humor)
| 2011/11/3 12:44|
| Re: ginnyrose|
Thank you for taking the time to expand your thought here.
Laying down one's will to another fallen creature is amazing and truly wonderful in the eyes of the world.
Surely, it must be a wonderful God who calls the sisters to do this, with all the amazing grace they need to do it.
Thank you for your encouraging example.
Be well ma'am,
| 2011/11/3 12:58||Profile|
| Re: |
I have been hesitant to post on this topic because I do not have the time and emotional strength to debate like some of the more "heavy-duty posters" on this forum. But I would humbly like to share my testimony for what it's worth. I was saved at the age of 27 and had been married for 4 years at that time. My husband was not yet saved. I had been groomed for a career like most young people my age, and was working full-time in nursing. The Lord was very gracious to me in that I had a VERY long commute and "discovered" Christian radio on a bumper sticker. As with most new believers, I was SO HUNGRY for spiritual truth. I didn't even know what a Mennonite was at the time and had grown up with a feminist mother in an unbelieving home. I never heard a radio program say that women should quit their jobs and stay at home. But just from my new knowledge of the Bible, and the Holy Spirit in me and teaching about being a helpmeet to my husband, I KNEW that GOD wanted me to quit my job. Because there was no way I could work a full-time job and have my husband and my home be my first priority. My loyalties would naturally be toward my employer and my work... So I quit - and God gave me 3 years of solid Bible study before He allowed us to have children. I am grateful that my husband was in agreement, and I have never gone back to work. I recognize that some women have no choice.
I just have to say that after almost 3 decades of homeschooling 7 children, I am more convinced than ever that the nurturing and "keeping the home fires burning" is a unique and special calling of women. It is not in ANY WAY inferior or demeaning. I am the backbone of what goes on "out there" as we reach into different people's lives. I am the gatekeeper in prayer for my family...I think the spirit of the original post of "confining women to the kitchen" is what is demeaning - the heart of God is that a woman is fulfilled as she serves and completes. After all, Jesus Himself came to serve.
I just wanted to share my story....
| 2011/11/3 16:23||Profile|
| Re: mama27|
Thank you for sharing your testimony.
A "Mother in Israel" is to be Greatly Honored in the Church of Jesus Christ.
May the Lord richly bless you ma'am, for your many sacrifices, and for your decades of labor.
| 2011/11/3 18:05||Profile|
| Re: |
Thank you for your kind words, but I hope I was not putting myself up in any way. What I was trying to convey was that it was not an adherence to any "creed" or "quiverfull movement".....it was GOD Himself who put this into my heart - nothing in me could have conjured it up, nor kept me going for a lifetime...Sacrifice IS the Christian life. I have lived in both worlds - the working world, and the keeper at home world. For me fulfillment has only come with the latter. I don't wish to spark debate, but I believe it is God's highest for women (and I am not speaking to those women who have to work)....
| 2011/11/3 20:18||Profile|
| Re: |
The view that women are confined to the kitchen is usually linked with the idea that all good believing girls will get married and have children. But under the new covenant singleness is a viable option for men and women (Matthew 19:11-12; 1 Corinthians 7). To put younger and older women under heavy guilt if they do not pursue marriage is to deny the freedom Christ has bestowed upon us.
Sure, that is true. That cannot be argued with. Pursue the Lord and find His will for your life. He directs your steps, not men.
In Luke 10:38-42 we find a beautiful story that shows us vividly the Lords heart. Mary was in the mens space, learning at Jesus feet. Martha was carrying out the responsibilities connected to having guests. She was frustrated that Mary was not helping with the preparations, but abiding in the living room with the male disciples. Jesus in no way put down what Martha was doing, but he did make it clear that Marys choice to be outside the kitchen was an excellent and acceptable one.
A couple of names that come to mind are Jackie Pullinger and Elisabeth Elliot (who went back to Ecuador after her husband was killed).
Nothing I have said should be taken as a downplaying or demeaning of motherhood. I am simply trying to bring needed perspective to a view that tightly and narrowly defines the role of women in a way that is seriously out of alignment with Christs revelation. Deborah held the public position of Judge, she publicly carried out her gifts as a prophetess, and yet she was also a mother in Israel.
I understand brother. My experience is that in some homes Matriarchy hides behind Patriarchy.
This was an interesting quote:
Mike Pearl mentioned in NGJ that he never received so much response as he did with the issues of Jezebel complex, and then the Dysfunctional Patriarchy.
In light of the fact that it has been noted that often it is the wives who introduce these new concepts (they've read about?) to their husbands, Mike Pearl says that many times it is Matriarchy behind Patriarchy.
Reminded me of the latest rendering of Stepford wives, it was a woman who, "only wanted a perfect world!", that was behind everything.
I had noticed the Pearls have warned repeatedly against the wife manipulating her husband, and I often wondered about that. Thought they were paranoid!
But I myself have shied away from ladies fellowships, homeschool mom groups, because I can't take the subtle (or not so subtle) scorn they have of differing ideas. I'm a non-conformist!
So I couldn't imagine why a wife would want/need to manipulate her man -unless she has zero confidence in his ideas, or, she doesn't think he respects hers.
Also, I didn't like the notion that a woman is manipulating if her husband listens to her reasoning and changes his mind about something. Is that necessarily manipulating? I put that under the regular practice of submitting to one another!
An interesting thread.
And here is the original article.
The Balanced Patriarch
Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - Part 2
| 2011/11/3 20:38||Profile|
| Re: mama27|
"Thank you for your kind words, but I hope I was not putting myself up in any way."
Yes, I know you weren't putting yourself up in any way, but I was. And this is as it should be. As you said, you did not choose motherhood and sacrificing for the sake of others because you were following some "movement", but rather, you were following God.
Be encouraged dear Sister. While many may disparage, directly or indirectly, overtly or subtly, the great work that sisters like you accomplish for the Kingdom of God, many others do appreciate it greatly.
Be well ma'am,
| 2011/11/3 22:27||Profile|
| Re: |
It is hard to believe that people would disparage someone else who is following God, but it is true. Just like they disparaged Jesus. We look foolish to the world. I second what dietolive says. Be encouraged.
Those who do things because of a movement or because of traditions and doctrines of men, have a bigger problem and that is not hearing and following God.
Your story is very inspirational and I am praying for your son.
| 2011/11/3 22:34||Profile|
| Re: |
Please forgive if this was already said, it took me so long to write it, there are many more replies now!
The word submission is colored by its context. In our culture, the context is sinful motivation, inappropriate views of value, and inequity. To discuss with clarity what the scriptures are addressing here, we must be vigilant not to mingle the darkness with the light.
Christ, in a sense, elevates the meaning of submission making it something we could hardly recognize in our sinful thinking. In Philippians it says
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
What do we picture here? A beaten, subjected son, or a powerful, holy God, willingly and with purpose submitting Himself to a Father He loves with a pure love, and a Father who loves Him and glorifies Him? He became a servant for our sakes. What a privilege to follow His pattern as a wife.
Jesus, though in him dwelled all the fullness of the Godhead bodily submitted Himself to the Father.
This was not a case in inequity. This was His choice.
In the marriage relationship, there can be a dazzling illustration of Christ and His church. Christ, who gave Himself for His bride; He withheld no good thing
I have often thought, as I have studied the Hebrew weddings and betrothal, the immense glory it is that the church is called the Bride of Christ. What the bridegroom did was a selfless thing. The bride was prepared and honored. Sometimes I think we struggle with the feminum role because we ourselves diminish it. If we see our value, our equality (not with Christ of course, but with all believers), we can peacefully take our place in His plan.
I know this is rambling, but I think I am trying to say, submission is not a dirty word; it is an honor if it is in loving obedience to God. And we picture Christs submission to the father, and the Churchs submission to Christ. And He lifts us up.
It is a place of peace and rest to live in submission.
| 2011/11/3 22:51||Profile|