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philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
A question about one of the N.T. instances of the word: was Paul saying that it was genuinely possible for him to transition from where he was into a state of "no silver at all" in the "castaway" verse?


hmmm. My adokimos thread really has the underlying theme of ‘failed’ ‘not come up to standard’ and hence not ‘approved unto God’ (2 Tim 2:15 and ‘dokimos’.) We then have to see how it applies in all those eight verses of the NT.

RobertW has linked the ‘unapproved’ of the NT with the ‘reject silver’ of Jer 6:30. The word refuse or rejected has quite a history in Jeremiah. It would be worthwhile looking up the Strongs number on Jeremiah just to see how it is used. (Jer 2:37; Jer 4:30; Jer 6:19; Jer 6:30; Jer 7:29; Jer 8:9; Jer 14:19; Jer 31:37; Jer 33:24; Jer 33:26;)

There is a link, I’m sure, but the NT word passes from just the idea of reject silver to anything which fails to get God’s approval. For the people of Judah it was their whole lives; I have a feeling that for the NT it is much more linked to the idea of service and God’s approval or not.

So, at this stage, of our ‘data gathering’ (and this word study is a real-time exercise) I don’t conclude the ‘unapproved’ of Paul translated ‘castaway’ in the KJV of 1 Cor 9:27 is utter rejection of Paul as a person. I’m trying to express all this very carefully. Our English word ‘reprobate’ has now come to mean a thoroughly unprincipled and incurable rogue, but that is an acquired usage. In the 1 Cor 9:27 verse, for example the NASB opts for ‘disqualified’. This changes the mood entirely and makes us ask the question; ‘disqualified from what?’ Heaven? Millennial rule? Future service? We shall have to look at these verses. I am determined to stick to my Sherlock Holmes and make the theory fit the data rather than the other way about.

The question could also be asked ‘what had Judah forfeited by its disqualification?’ personal individual salvation? That doesn’t seem to have been in the frame in the Jeremiah verses. Chosen vessel status? Much more likely I think, but we’ll need to look again at those NT verses. If I followed through on these hunches, I would be on my way to saying Paul’s fear was that he would lose his ‘ministry’ rather than his personal salvation. The 2 Tim 2:15 verse has me heading in that direction too.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/30 15:49Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
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 Re:

I agree that we had best stick to searching out the facts first, then forming theories to fit them.

The N.T. passages are somewhat more important to me, but I'm curious about this aspect of the Jeremiah passages:

Quote:
The question could also be asked ‘what had Judah forfeited by its disqualification?’ personal individual salvation? That doesn't seem to have been in the frame in the Jeremiah verses. Chosen vessel status? Much more likely I think,

In Jeremiah 42, where God is dealing with a specific remnant of Judah ( vv. 1 & 8 : "all the captains of the forces, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and Jezaniah the son of Hoshaiah, and all the people from the least even unto the greatest," are we dealing with the same 'reprobate silver' here?), I think the theme is not merely one of [i]disqualification[/i] but one of [i]destruction[/i].

Jeremiah 42
17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the [b]evil[/b] that [b]I will bring upon them[/b].
18 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As mine anger and my fury hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem; [b]so shall my fury be poured forth upon you[/b], when ye shall enter into Egypt: and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach; and ye shall see this place no more.

Is God not here saying to those that would spurn His previous gift of deliverance from Egypt, and His present offer of reconciliation (on very generous terms, vv. 10-12), that He would not only not use them as a chosen vessel, not only leave them to their natural fate apart from His guidance, but essentially [i]hunt them down[/i] and wreak calamity upon them, unto their utter destruction? (I'm taking "evil" in v. 17 to mean 'calamity' rather than 'injustice', for obvious reasons)

 2004/12/30 16:25Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Hi Keith,

Quote:
In Jeremiah 42, where God is dealing with a specific remnant of Judah ( vv. 1 & 8 : "all the captains of the forces, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and Jezaniah the son of Hoshaiah, and all the people from the least even unto the greatest," are we dealing with the same 'reprobate silver' here?), I think the theme is not merely one of disqualification but one of destruction.

I’m sure you’re right. I think the Amos verse; [b] You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. (Amo 3:2 KJV)[/b] is always at work in God’s dealings with the people of His Sinai covenant. Great privilege brought great responsibility, and punishment for all your iniquities. Again, though we have done the exogesis, what it meant then, we must go on to the exposition, what it means for me. In Jeremiah we shall find principles that will need to be transposed into a different key for a clear NT understanding. The OT is giving us basic building blocks for concepts and principles.

For Judah the destruction came. The last verses (but two) of 2 Chronicles 36:14-21 are the terrible fulfilment of the threat that recurs right through Jeremiah. These verses actually tie in the deportations with the prophecies of Jeremiah. The amazing thing was that after the total destruction of city and temple and priesthood and the deportation of Judah, God turned the captivity of Zion. The remnant carried the promises but millions never returned and passed from history into myth and legend.


Quote:
Jer 42:17,18… Is God not here saying to those that would spurn His previous gift of deliverance from Egypt, and His present offer of reconciliation (on very generous terms, vv. 10-12), that He would not only not use them as a chosen vessel, not only leave them to their natural fate apart from His guidance, but essentially hunt them down and wreak calamity upon them, unto their utter destruction? (I'm taking "evil" in v. 17 to mean 'calamity' rather than 'injustice', for obvious reasons)

Historically some who had rebelled against Babylon chose to take refuge in Egypt, although Jeremiah told them plainly that they would not escape God’s anger by doing so. They took Jeremiah with them as a hostage; [b] So Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, and all the people, obeyed not the voice of the LORD, to dwell in the land of Judah. But Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, took all the remnant of Judah, that were returned from all nations, whither they had been driven, to dwell in the land of Judah; Even men, and women, and children, and the king's daughters, and every person that Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had left with Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and [u]Jeremiah the prophet[/u], and Baruch the son of Neriah. (Jer 43:4-6 KJV)[/b]

I think this is just showing the thoroughness of God’s wrath and that retribution was inescapable, even for those who fled to Egypt. Jeremiah continued to prophesy to [b]all Judah that are in the land of Egypt. Jer 44:24[/b]

The Jeremiah 42:10-12 is really a promise that reaches beyond the coming judgment. Some leaders within Judah had determined to escape Babylonian capture by intending to flee to Egypt. Jeremiah warns them that they would do better to stay in Judah, even though Babylon would conquer them. Those who stayed in Judah went into captivity in Babylon and some returned. Of those who fled to Egypt, retribution would still follow them, but there would be no ‘restoration’ for them.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/30 17:38Profile
philologos
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 Re:

So say the experts… my view will follow!

[i]Vines Expository Dictionary[/i]
[b]Reprobate[/b]
adokimos signifying "not standing the test, rejected" (a, negative, dokimos, "approved"), was primarily applied to metals (cp. Isaiah_1:22); it is used always in the NT in a Passive sense,
(a) of things, Heb_6:8, "rejected," of land that bears thorns and thistles;
(b) of persons, Rom_1:28, of a "reprobate mind," a mind of which God cannot approve, and which must be rejected by Him, the effect of refusing "to have God in their knowledge;" in 1_Cor_9:27 (for which see CAST, REJECT); 2_Cor_13:5,6,7, where the RV rightly translates the adjective "reprobate" (AV, "reprobates"), here the reference is to the great test as to whether Christ is in a person; in 2_Tim_3:8 of those "reprobate concerning the faith," i.e., men whose moral sense is perverted and whose minds are beclouded with their own speculations; in Titus_1:16, of the defiled, who are "unto every good work reprobate," i.e., if they are put to the test in regard to any good work (in contrast to their profession), they can only be rejected. In the Sept., Prov_25:4; Isaiah_1:22.

[i]Easton's Bible Dictionary[/i]
[b[Reprobate[/b] - that which is rejected on account of its own worthlessness (Jer_6:30; Heb_6:8; Gr. adokimos, "rejected"). This word is also used with reference to persons cast away or rejected because they have failed to make use of opportunities offered them (1_Cor_9:27; 2_Cor_13:5-7).

[i]International Standard Bible Encyclopedia[/i]
[b]Reprobate[/b]
rep´rṓ-bāt: This word occurs in the English Bible in the following passages: Jer_6:30 (the Revised Version (British and American) “refuse”); Rom_1:28; 2Co_13:5, 2Co_13:6, 2Co_13:7; 2Ti_3:8; Tit_1:16. In all these cases the Greek has ἀδόκιμος, adókimos. The same Greek word, however, is found with other renderings in Isa_1:22 (“dross”); Pro_25:4 (“dross”); 1Co_9:27 (“castaway,” the Revised Version (British and American) “rejected”). The primary meaning of adokimos is “not-received,” “not-acknowledged.” This is applied to precious metals or money, in the sense of “not-current,” to which, however, the connotation “not-genuine” easily attaches itself. It is also applied to persons who do not or ought not to receive honor or recognition. This purely negative conception frequently passes over into the positive one of that which is or ought to be rejected, either by God or men. Of the above passages 1Co_9:27 uses the word in this meaning. Probably Rom_1:28, “God gave them up unto a reprobate mind” must be explained on the same principle: the noús of the idolatrous heathen is permitted by God to fall into such extreme forms of evil as to meet with the universal rejection and reprobation of men. Wettstein's interpretation, “an unfit mind,” i.e. incapable of properly performing its function of moral discrimination, has no linguistic warrant, and obliterates the wordplay between “they refused to have God in their knowledge (ouk edokímasan),” and “God gave them up to a reprobate (= unacknowledged, adokimos) mind.” Even Tit_1:16, “unto every good work reprobate,” affords no instance of the meaning unfit, but belongs to the following rubric.
The close phonetic resemblance and etymological affinity of dokimos to the verb dokimázō, “to try,” “test,” has caused the notion of “being tested,” “tried,” and its opposite of “being found wanting in the test” to associate itself more or less distinctly with the adjectives dokimos and adokimos. Thus the more complex meaning results of that which is acknowledged or rejected, because it has approved or not approved itself in testing. This connotation is present in 2Co_13:5, 2Co_13:6, 2Co_13:7; 2Ti_3:8; Tit_1:16; Heb_6:8. In the first two of these passages the word is used of Christians who ostensibly were in the true faith, but either hypothetically or actually are represented as having failed to meet the test. “Reprobate unto every good work” (Tit_1:16) are they who by their life have disappointed the expectation of good works. The “reprobate (rejected) land” of Heb_6:8 is land that by bearing thorns and thistles has failed to meet the test of the husband man. It should be noticed, however, that adokimos, even in these cases, always retains the meaning of rejection because of failure in trial; compare in the last-named passage: “rejected and nigh unto cursing.”


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/31 5:40Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
The “reprobate (rejected) land” of Heb_6:8 is land that by bearing thorns and thistles has failed to meet the test of the husband man. It should be noticed, however, that adokimos, even in these cases, always retains the meaning of rejection because of failure in trial; compare in the last-named passage: “rejected and nigh unto cursing.”



Hi Bro. Ron,

I was thinking on this passage today; the passage reads; For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. The land itself would not burn if set fire by the husbandman; only the plants themselves. The land could be cursed though. The plants bring forth after their own kind. They were born of thorns and thistles and bring forth after their own kind. Yet, this particular land seems to only want to produce thorns and thistles. Why would that be?

In desert regions and during dry times you will notice that only very thorny plants grow in these dry areas. As a matter of fact, we have cactus plants that will grow just fine under the driest conditions in the Southwest part of the country.

I used to have a saying that the seeds of sin will grow on the very soil of your heart in which you quinch the Holy spirit and harden you heart. Metaphorically, I see the Holy Spirit as that 'rain' coming down being quinched from the ground and dryness and hardness results. The process produces ground that becomes "fallow ground", which must be broken up. We read in Jeremiah 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. What is he saying here? Get rid of the sin and break up the ground of your heart?

We read again; Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hardened ground will not absorb 'in' the rain that cometh often upon it; but it will do just that, "drinketh it in." Like a desert after a hard rain, the soil is too hard to receive it in as it would in a well tilled area.

Yet, soil does not have free moral agency- man does. The Holy Ghost is poured out and poured out and poured out and yet an individual can still find a means of only supporting the most vile of plantlife. Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Why are we seeing all these 'thorns' and 'briars.' I think the key is back in Jeremiah 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. The people simply refuse to cooperate with the Holy Ghost because they want their sin. God deals with them and deals with them and they are not saved. The bellows are burned, the smelter smelteth in vain.

Any thoughts?

God bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/31 19:32Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Posts: 354


 Re:

So far, what I'm getting on adokimos:
Adjective, usually of humans (even the application to metal is a metaphor for the state of Judah).
General connotation of "rejected", "unapproved", "unapprovable", "unacceptable", etc.
Apparently also connotations of "unacknowledged" (any connection to "I never knew you" and/or "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."?)
And there seems to be some dispute as to whether it could mean "unfit" when applied to "mind", meaning that the "reprobate mind" is incapable of moral sense, perhaps to the degree that salvation is impossible for those with such a mind. How do the facts fit (or not fit) that kind of theory, anyway?

Some of my questions, which I think have been partly answered:
What, exactly, does it mean for a man to be [i]adokimos[/i]? Is there more than one answer, depending on the instance?
Who, exactly, does the Bible call [i]adokimos[/i]?
What effect does being [i]adokimos[/i] have on one's relationship with God?
Is it mutable or immutable (Delboy. changeable or unchangeable :-))?

 2004/12/31 22:14Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Hi Keith

Quote:
Adjective, usually of humans (even the application to metal is a metaphor for the state of Judah).
General connotation of "rejected", "unapproved", "unapprovable", "unacceptable", etc.
Apparently also connotations of "unacknowledged" (any connection to "I never knew you" and/or "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."?)


I have a strong sense that the order is important here.
tested - unapproved - rejected. This brings us back to the question as to what is being tested. Is it the man or his works? Is it the man or his ministry? Is the man or his fitness for more responsibility?

Hi Robert
This Hebrews reference is the only non-Paul use of the term in the new testament. [b] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:8 KJV)[/b] This is a very important passage of scripture coming as it does in the most severe warning in the New Testament.

I think the ‘target audience’ of Hebrews is very important. They are people with a solid background of Jeremiah and all the other prophets. They would have been aware of the ‘second chance’ that had been given to Israel in the Restoration under Zerubbabel, Ezra and Nehemiah. They would have heard the ominous warnings of Malachi with its repeated note of finality; [b] Oh that there were one among you that would shut the doors, that ye might not kindle fire on mine altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, saith Jehovah of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. (Mal 1:10 ASV)[/b]

They may well have been among those who heard the death knell of the nation; [b] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43 KJV)[/b] They may have even heard the terrible statement; [b] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Mat 23:36-38 KJV)[/b] He who had defended His Father’s house now disowns it; [b]your house is left unto you desolate[/b] This is the same verdict as was pronounced on Judas Iscariot; [b] For it is written in the book of Psalms, [u]Let his habitation be desolate[/u], and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. (Act 1:20 KJV)[/b]

If we keep all this in mind as we read Hebrews it brings things into sharper focus and is, I think, the true context of this letter. So often they had rejected the words received by the fathers through the prophets, but in these last days God has [b]spoken to us in a Son[/b]. The same theme continues at different points in Hebrews [b] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:1-4 KJV)[/b] Christ and His New Covenant is God’s [i]last word[/i]. He is the heir, 1:4, of whom Israel said [b] But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
(Mat 21:38 KJV)[/b]

Imagine then the remnant who have had all these ‘second chances’ and who have responded to the last word, if they should then begin to reject that and then begin to ‘draw back’; [b] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:38-39 KJV)[/b] To these who have received such grace upon grace upon grace, and [b] …were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Heb 6:4-5 KJV)[/b]… what more can God do?

It is in this context that we get our only non-pauline use in the New Testament of [i]adokimos[/i]; [b] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is [u]rejected[/u] ([i]adokimos[/i], and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Heb 6:7-9 KJV)[/b]

It seems to me that this is spoken to the believing remnant and is particularly applicable to them. I think we have to repeat the introduction to get the sense clearly i.e.
[b] a)For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
b) [i] earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it[/i] But that which beareth thorns and briers is [u]rejected[/u] ([i]adokimos[/i], and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.[/b]
The point I am trying to make is that both kinds of land received exactly the same ‘experiences’ from God, but the former produces a harvest, the latter only thorns and briers. The former consequently is blessed, the latter [i]adokimos[/i], assessment according to purpose and quality, failure to meet the requirements, dis-approval, and ultimately rejection.

If we put some flesh on ‘experiences’ from God, gained from the previous verses… if some are enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, (in Hebrews that does not mean a tentative sip, Christ tasted death for every man), were make partakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of a coming age… if some have received all these ‘experiences’ and only bring forth thorns and briers, the consequence is ‘rejection’ and they are on the point of being cursed and burned.

I think it is pretty much agreed that Hebrews is pre-AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple and its rituals. Surely that was a demonstration of cursing and burning. This passage of Hebrews says the cursing is ‘nigh’ and the culmination ‘end’ is burning. Later in Hebrews the writer speaks of the Old Covenant; [b] By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear. (Heb 8:13 HCSB)[/b] Even the outer form disappeared with the destruction of the Temple.

We could quote several other verses from Hebrews but my purpose is to suggest that Hebrews is written to a particular group of people with a unique history and poised on the point of turning back from the New Covenant to the old. I think this reference is ‘group’ focussed. This group, the believing remnant, were in danger of ‘drawing back’ and so utterly forfeiting what God had planned for them.

This warning has a personal dimension, but I think the main thrust is ‘group’.

That’s long enough. I’ll wait for your comments.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/1 15:53Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,


Quote:
We could quote several other verses from Hebrews but my purpose is to suggest that Hebrews is written to a particular group of people with a unique history and poised on the point of turning back from the New Covenant to the old. I think this reference is ‘group’ focussed. This group, the believing remnant, were in danger of ‘drawing back’ and so utterly forfeiting what God had planned for them.



Yes, the Messianic Jews call this book (Hebrews) "Messianic Jews." I agree that it was targeted to the believing Jews and those Jews who were halting between two opinions. I think though that the same can be said in a general sense to the Gospels and the Prophets, so I don't want to just set the book aside and suggest it applies only to the Jews. I don't think that's what you're suggesting here, I just feel the passage still applies. My reasoning for that goes back to the grafting in passages of Romans. The words of Hebrews were to the Jew first; but also to the Gentile.

The Corinthian church comes to mind. They had tasted of the Heavenly gift, the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. What if some of them 'drank in' all these things and yet yielded thornes and briars? :-( We also are down wind of these things and have beheld the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem as a land (in our history books that is) in 70 and 135 CE. The mass amounts of calamities. We see a foretaste of the 'burnings.' Yet these things were written as our examples and for our learning. i guess I'm saying, it seems to me that we also are familiar with these passages as were the Jews as well as the destruction that came on the unbelievers. We seem to have more 'light' than even those to whom the Hebrews was written. So the list could be longer now and read were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come + the knowledge of the destruction of the priesthood, Temple, Jerusalem, Israel, Ananias and Sapphira, etc. etc. moreover we have something few had in those days- we have the vast proliferation of the word of God through the printing press and electronic media. God is on every hand.

Am I seeing this all wrong or was there an element there that i'm missing? :-?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/3 9:01Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
I don't want to just set the book aside and suggest it applies only to the Jews. I don't think that's what you're suggesting here,

No, that wasn’t what I was suggesting. I was rather trying to get the atmosphere of the passage; along the lines of Wycliffe’s famous advice...
It Shall Greatly Helpe Ye To Understande Scripture If Thou Mark...
Not only what is Spoken or Wrytten
but of Whom
and to Whom
with what Words
at what Time
Where
to what Intent
with what Circumstances
considering what Goeth Before
and what Followeth.


Quote:
Yes, the Messianic Jews call this book (Hebrews) "Messianic Jews." I agree that it was targeted to the believing Jews and those Jews who were halting between two opinions.

I don’t think Hebrews is written to those halting between two opinions. I think it was written to those who were in danger of turning around and heading back the way they had come; to those who were contemplating ‘apostasy’. They are not those who have ‘not arrived’ but those who have ‘[u]become[/u] such as have need of milk and not of strong meat.’ That ‘[u]become[/u]’ does not suggest non-arrival but retreat.

I think it is this ‘retreat’ or apostasy that is in mind in Hebrews. I don’t think we are dealing here with people who have lost their footing but with people who are in danger of making a clear decision to return to the Old Covenant. This would be impossible unless the person discredited the sacrifice of the cross, [b]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29 KJV)[/b] The whole section in the NASB is [b] Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Heb 10:28-30 NASB)[/b]

This would be the last straw, hence the last word, and the last warning, and all these references to the better things.

I think 1 Corinthians is different ground. They are behaving like babes in Christ and hence ‘carnal’. The little list of examples of carnality, ‘envying, strife, divisions,’ are sins rather than apostasy. They have refused to grow, rather than decided to return the way they came.

The Hebrews warning comes on the heels of generations of similar warnings, and this is the last. To turn away from this revelation knowingly and to choose Sinai again is without remedy.

I would support my hunches my looking at another sobre passage of Hebrews. [b] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (Heb 10:28 KJV)[/b] This seems to be a reference to [b] At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. (Deu 17:6 KJV)[/b] but if it is that section of Deuteronomy is very specifically dealing with apostates. Concluding Deuteronomy we have the sentence; [b] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29 KJV)[/b] They had ‘received’ the truth, and embraced it. There was no excuse for ignorance. If, in full knowledge of this revelation and initial embracing of it, the covenant member then turns consciously chooses other Gods… [b] And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; (Deu 17:3 KJV)[/b].. that person was removed from the covenant community by stoning.

Again it is this extreme case that seems to be in the mind of the writer to Hebrews. I am not saying this to excuse compromise or luke-warmness, but simply that I do think we have extreme cases in view. Of course such luke-warmness might be the first signs of coming apostasy. I note that the only community in the Seven Churches which was threatened with total excommunication and annihilation (the removal of the lampstand) was Ephesus which had ‘left’ her ‘first love’.

What I am saying is the context and style of these Hebrew warnings is very reminiscent of warnings to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and the Gospels. In other words, I don’t think these strong warnings have their place in normal pastoral admonition but more in the setting of studied apostasy.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/3 13:59Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,

Quote:
It Shall Greatly Helpe Ye To Understande Scripture If Thou Mark...
Not only what is Spoken or Wrytten
but of Whom
and to Whom
with what Words
at what Time
Where
to what Intent
with what Circumstances
considering what Goeth Before
and what Followeth.



I love this quote. The post is very good also.

Quote:
What I am saying is the context and style of these Hebrew warnings is very reminiscent of warnings to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and the Gospels. In other words, I don’t think these strong warnings have their place in normal pastoral admonition but more in the setting of studied apostasy.



I agree and that is how I have used this passage. It seems to belong to those who have truly renounced Christ. So it seems that modern application would be in terms of such as have turned to other gods? Would you concur?

God Bless,

-Robert





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/3 14:53Profile





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