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savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1987


 Is Modern Israel a Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?


Is Modern Israel a Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy? A Debate (DVD) ---------Includes 2 Bonus lectures on Ezekiel 38 and 39 by Gary DeMar (approximately 38 minutes each)

Product Description:

Does Modern Israel Have a Role in the End Times?

Did God fulfill the Old Testament prophecies of the restoration of Israel with Ezra, Nehemiah, and the early church, or have we seen them come to pass in recent decades?

Many Christians believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Old Testament prophecy and heralded the imminent return of Christ.

But what does the Bible mean when it talks about the restoration of Israel?

And what happens to the identity of God's people and the entire fabric of Bible prophecy when modern Israel becomes the subject of the Old Testament prophets?

Product Description
Does Modern Israel Have a Role in the End Times?

Did God fulfill the Old Testament prophecies of the restoration of Israel with Ezra, Nehemiah, and the early church, or have we seen them come to pass in recent decades?

Many Christians believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Old Testament prophecy and heralded the imminent return of Christ.

But what does the Bible mean when it talks about the restoration of Israel?

And what happens to the identity of God's people and the entire fabric of Bible prophecy when modern Israel becomes the subject of the Old Testament prophets?

Product Description
Does Modern Israel Have a Role in the End Times?

Did God fulfill the Old Testament prophecies of the restoration of Israel with Ezra, Nehemiah, and the early church, or have we seen them come to pass in recent decades?

Many Christians believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Old Testament prophecy and heralded the imminent return of Christ.

But what does the Bible mean when it talks about the restoration of Israel?

And what happens to the identity of God's people and the entire fabric of Bible prophecy when modern Israel becomes the subject of the Old Testament prophets?

http://www.americanvision.com/Modern-Israel

 2011/10/8 15:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Is Modern Israel a Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

Personally, I feel that Ezekiel chapter 37 -- written more than 2,500 years ago -- was fulfilled (at least partially) in 1948. It speaks of Judah and Israel being united together in a physical sense...which doesn't seem to have any apparent interpretive value in regard to the Church.

Paul, Peter and some of the apostles did make a distinction between Gentiles and Jews.

When Paul speaks of Israel in Romans, it seems apparent that he is speaking of the Jews. He talks about Israel experiencing a "hardening" until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Romans 11:25-29) and that, eventually, "all of Israel" being saved. If this was a reference to the church, then it makes no sense.

In fact, Paul goes so far, in speaking of Israel, that the "gifts of God are without repentance" (Romans 11:29). This is often referred to by hyper-Calvinists in regard to salvation, but it is referring to the selection of Israel by God.

Now, there is a difference between the government of Israel and the people of Israel. If I had a son and he walked away from our family and opened up a business that we disapproved of, he would still be my son...even if I disapprove of his worldliness and vocational choices. Likewise, the government of Israel is different than the "people" of Israel...or a religion of that people that has become increasingly secular in many aspects.

Still, the nation of Israel existed even before the government did -- including in 1948. The nation was declared independent in May 1948. However, there were no uniform set of governing laws or constitution until the next year. This is similar to what happened in the US. The colonists declared independence in July 1776, but the formal constitution wasn't ratified until 1789. Yet, during that time, the nation still existed and the people were still called "Americans" and even "Yankees."

I would point out that Revelation continues to make a distinction of "Israel" -- including the 144,000 from the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:4). So, there is still a prophetic precedent for nomenclature regarding the Jews. In fact, the twelve tribes of Israel are important enough to God that the city of New Jerusalem -- after the 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the Earth and the destruction of the heavens and the earth -- will contain the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on the walls (Revelation 21:10-12).

Anyway, there is a good argument in regard to the lasting nation of Israel -- even if it is somewhat different than a "government" (as in an accepted, uniform set of laws).

Just before our Lord ascended into Heaven, Jesus was asked about the "restoration" of Israel. The disciples asked, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

Jesus didn't answer with a statement that the Jews were no longer the physically chosen people of God or that this calling was now void.

Rather, Jesus answered, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:7-8).

In other words, there are "times and seasons" that "the Father hath put in his own power" regarding the kingdom of Israel.

I suppose that the entire creation of the modern physical nation of Israel was miraculous. These individuals returned to the promised land after thousands of years of diaspora. Yet, many chose to leave other continents to the land promised to Abraham. It is almost unthinkable that a people would stay culturally and racially "separate" for so long and then return to a land from so long before based upon a "promise" made to a man five thousand years earlier.

It is truly remarkable.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/10/8 16:31Profile









 Re:

I agree with ccchhhrrriiisss.

Krispy

 2011/10/8 19:23
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1987


 Re: Is Modern Israel a Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

Leviticus 14:33-48 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, When ye shall have come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession; And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, it seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house: Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest shall enter to see the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house: And he shall look on the plague, and behold, if the plague is in the walls of the house, with hollow streaks, greenish, or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall; Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days: And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look; and behold, if the plague is spread in the walls of the house; Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city: And he shall cause the house to be scraped within on all sides, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place: And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other mortar, and shall plaster the house.

And if the plague shall return, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plastered; Then the priest shall come and look; and behold, if the plague is spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.

And he shall break down the house, its stones, and its timber, and all the mortar of the house: and he shall carry them forth out of the city to an unclean place.

Moreover, he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up, shall be unclean until the evening.
And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes: and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plastered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Hebrews 9:11-15 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood; he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctify to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, will he find faith on the earth?

Matthew 24:15-18 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:1,2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 19:41-46 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

John 2:13-22 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Hebrews 3:1-7 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath built the house, hath more honor than the house. For every house is built by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were afterwards to be spoken. But Christ as a son over his own house: whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence, and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner-stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. To you therefore who believe he is precious: but to them who are disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them who stumble at the word, being disobedient: to which also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Who in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Galatians 4:22-26 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-maid, the other by a free-woman.
But he who was of the bond-woman, was born according to the flesh; but he of the free-woman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the first-born, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:2,3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them, and be their God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh, will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses, and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a vivifying spirit. However, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Revelation 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John: Who bore testimony of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 2011/10/9 7:59Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Good word Chris.

 2011/10/9 9:54Profile
BroFrank001
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Joined: 2011/9/22
Posts: 7


 Re: Is Israel's return to her homeland really significant??

Greetings, Bro Savanah. You have stated that Israel’s return is mentioned only in the Old Testament, and that the return of the Jews to their homeland is of questionable value. Since Bro. Demar is of the Preterit persuasion, and you quote him as an authority, I assume that you consider Christ’s statement regarding the budding of the fig tree (Matt. 24:32) to be irrelevant, since that affirmation is subject to interpretation. I do note, however, that you quote Matt. 24:15-18 which Preterits largely consider to have been fulfilled already . . . before Christ’s coming (in the time of the Maccabees). Yet, if Christ Himself made no comments beyond AD 70 (when Jerusalem fell) what does that say about our Lord? Is not the testimony of Christ the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10)? Revelation 1:15 describes Christ's speech as that of "many waters"--in other words, HE speaks on many levels (as a stream may have several currents in movement, at once). On one level, we think we understand Him . . . on another, we discover a new revelation, tomorrow! Are we saying that this cannot be applied to prophecy, as well??

When we are studying Scripture do we study it to find God’s mind on the matter, or to give credence to our particular group? Please, do not take that as an attack. Since this is a site for the serious discussion of Scripture, I must assume the former—with the possibility of sometimes slipping into the latter position.

You imply that a solid NEW TESTAMENT reference is needed for Christians to assume that the nation of Israel is relevant to us, in the age of grace. I question whether this is truly necessary. However, have you considered the reference given by the angels at Christ’s ascension wherein we are told that Christ will return to earth just as He ascended? The next verse reads:

“Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey.” (Acts 1:12)

This prophecy, given by angels within the New Testament, places Christ’s returning in the cross-hairs of Zechariah’s prophecy, which also reads:

“Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, . . .”
Zechariah 14:1-4a

The above passage clearly cites a conflict (even contest of the nations, counter to the nation of Israel) just prior to Christ's actual returning to Earth. However, until 1948, the nation of Israel did not even exist. Nor was Jerusalem a “burdensome stone” (Zech. 12:3) to the nations of the world—resulting from a jealousy and animosity wrung out in sibling rivalry within the middle east (the seed of Isaac vs. those who thoroughly identify with Esau and Ishmael).

This brings to my mind the situation that arose when Christ came the first time. The pundits and prognosticators (Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees) had postulated and calculated how Messiah should come—all in a manner that would satisfy their comfortable way of living, and predominance in religious circles. I, for one, can find justification for their crucifying Christ for the charge of blasphemy based on Deut. 18:20. Christ’s claims were fantastic, to say the least.
Once Jesus arose from the dead, however, all bets were off. It was time to hand in their sheepskins, if necessary, and to reconsider Christ’s claims. God had trumped their reasoning.

The same is true today. Up until 1948 we could have easily assumed that NT claims and implications regarding the return of Israel (such as Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:15, for example, which we have not yet considered in our discussion) were all “spiritual” and symbolic, only. Once the nation was reborn, however, Christ’s projections and WARNINGS concerning being on the right side of the battle that will precede His Return should give us pause. Very serious pause, indeed.

In fact, a very serious issue that we really must consider, is whether or not denials concerning the significance of Israel’s returning are not actually rooted in a desire not to face/confront hard choices, regarding the reformed nation of Israel. After all, those in high places are just itching for someone within the Christian Church to give them justification for denying Israel her right to exist (which is what the so called “two state solution” is really all about).

As Germans turned a deaf ear, during the holocaust, some Christians would now turn a blind eye, concerning Israel.

Be blessed in Jesus.

 2011/10/9 21:26Profile





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