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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Psalm 118:8

It is better to take refuge in Jehovah Than to put confidence in man.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/1/4 12:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Jake

Quote:
This is not so. My final authority is the Holy Spirit, available to each and every one of us in the here and now. The Holy Spirit is of Jesus Christ, so I know that Jesus lived and died for us.

But the Holy Spirit witnesses to His physical resurrection through the words of the same recorders who gave you your evidence of his life and death. I presume you did not come to believe in his life and death by immediate revelation but by reference to the gospel record. (Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20,21) The very recorders whose witness you receive are the they whose witness you reject. Can you not see the inconsistency of your position?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/4 13:08Profile









 Re:


Ron,
Yes, I do rely on corroborating testimonies about Jesus presented in the Gospels. That I don't view the Bible as inerrant does not mean I throw out the baby with the bath water. But if I didn't have the experiential witness of the Holy Spirit in the here and now, I'm not sure that I would accept it. Jesus tells us He is sending a comforter and counselor, and if you open yourself to it you can learn that it is true and come to rely on it. God speaks to our hearts and minds through His servants of the past ages and His Holy Spirit in the now.

In a way, I see the requirement for an inerrent Bible to be a crutch. Lots of tough questions, ones that can shake a person's faith, don't have to be addressed if you unquestioningly take the bible as inerrant.
Jake

 2005/1/4 14:12
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake

Quote:
Jesus tells us He is sending a comforter and counselor, and if you open yourself to it you can learn that it is true and come to rely on it.

This ‘it’ you are relying on is a feeling and not to be confused with the ‘Him’ that Jesus promised.


Quote:
In a way, I see the requirement for an inerrent Bible to be a crutch. Lots of tough questions, ones that can shake a person's faith, don't have to be addressed if you unquestioningly take the bible as inerrant.

The Bible definition of faith is that it ‘comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God’. What you are calling faith is not faith, but an idolatrous presumption. Here is a little quotation from William Tyndale which will explain why I describe it as idolatry…
[i] Thou seest also that to have faith where God hath not a promise, is idolatry.[/i]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/4 14:39Profile









 Re:

Ron, I didn't know that you are an arbiter of other people's religious and spiritual experiences. Many Quakers have spoken and written clearly of their encounters with the Holy Spirit. Their testimony speaks to the Truth that Jesus presented to us all. I will believe this testimony over that of someone who claims that the world is less than 10,000 years old or that Moses lived hundreds of years -- simply because the Bible says so -- every time. (I mean really, a Grand Canyon carved out by water in less than millions of year??? Physics don't lie.)

If you want to win converts to Christianity, you need to make the parameters less difficult to comprehend and more believable. I fear your version of Christianity is irrationally exclusionary, because you have much higher requirements for faith and belief than did Jesus.
Jake

 2005/1/4 17:17
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Jake,
Inerrancy is perhaps the one issue Evangelicals are most likely to "take for granted" and not be able to defend (except on a case by case basis, and that quite effectively, but not really as a system). I think this is partly because that, at least until very recent times, inerrancy was viewed as the "watershed of evangelicalism," to use Francis Schaeffer's term. It seems to me that it is a dangerous thing to question, but ultimately I think we should be prepared to examine what we believe even in that area. I know a few good Brothers who couldn't [i]quite[/i] call it inerrant by the normal definition, and the question certainly comes up when looking at, for instance, both the KJV and NIV; what do we mean by inerrant in that case?

But even those I know who wouldn't exactly toe the Evangelical line on inerrancy wouldn't have any significant practical differences (due to that) in how they read the Bible from me. Do they trust what they read therein? Yes. Their problems are not with the content, as far as I can tell.

Questions, if you don't mind:

You say the Holy Spirit speaks to you; how do you know it is the Holy Spirit? Are you ever "spoken to" in such a way and doubt that it was from the Holy Spirit?

 2005/1/4 17:42Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2741
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
In a way, I see the requirement for an inerrent Bible to be a crutch. Lots of tough questions, ones that can shake a person's faith, don't have to be addressed if you unquestioningly take the bible as inerrant.



Innerancy of Scripture is no mere crutch, it is a firm foundation upon which faith can stand. Biblical faith is not blind faith as you imply, God does not ask us to believe without also providing answers to our questions, they are the only real answers that life can be consistently lived by.

Speaking of tough questions, can your science answer the really tough ones like the existence of the universe? Can it explain the uniqueness of man in that universe? Or does it explain how man can reach such heights of achievement and yet fall to such depths of depravity? Can your philosophy answer those questions with answers that you can consistently live by? The Bible can.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/1/4 18:52Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, I didn't know that you are an arbiter of other people's religious and spiritual experiences.

You don't have to make a profession out of this in order to see that your final point of reference is yourself.

Quote:
I will believe this testimony over that of someone who claims that the world is less than 10,000 years old or that Moses lived hundreds of years -- simply because the Bible says so -- every time. (I mean really, a Grand Canyon carved out by water in less than millions of year??? Physics don't lie.)

You know that I am not a 'young earther' and Moses lived for 120 years, rather than hundreds. Although if you want to see what hydraulic power can do in a short space of time you have just had a powerful reminder in the Indian Ocean.


Quote:
If you want to win converts to Christianity, you need to make the parameters less difficult to comprehend and more believable. I fear your version of Christianity is irrationally exclusionary, because you have much higher requirements for faith and belief than did Jesus.

In other words, as the tailor said to his client, never mind the quality feel the width!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/5 3:34Profile
Ethan
Member



Joined: 2004/11/28
Posts: 23
Dubai

 Re:

Ron, I didn't know that you are an arbiter of other people's religious and spiritual experiences. Many Quakers have spoken and written clearly of their encounters with the Holy Spirit. Their testimony speaks to the Truth that Jesus presented to us all. I will believe this testimony over that of someone who claims that the world is less than 10,000 years old or that Moses lived hundreds of years -- simply because the Bible says so -- every time. (I mean really, a Grand Canyon carved out by water in less than millions of year??? Physics don't lie.)

If you want to win converts to Christianity, you need to make the parameters less difficult to comprehend and more believable. I fear your version of Christianity is irrationally exclusionary, because you have much higher requirements for faith and belief than did Jesus.

Jake

Brother Jake

From the beginning it is the heart of man to disobey, disapprove or rebel against the Holy God. I don’t know what you believe. But I tell you I was a hindu Brahmin (priestly) person who has been touched by God and was transformed to the Kingdom of His Son. When I came to understand who my God is I know one thing – that the very bible I was holding (every word) I know it has been breathed into the hearts of people by Holy Spirit and they wrote. It is faith.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. That’s why in Peter, the author affirms that by faith believe the heavens were of old and earth stands on water. We believe in faith that God created the heavens, earth and all in it in six days.

Heaven and earth will pass away but not my words. Vain knowledge profits nothing. I am not here to correct the errors of people but I know the seriousness of these words I read. I am not here to contradict the opinion of people who try to accommodate that between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there are billions of years. No brother. Then we have to go in to argument which profits nothing.

You wrote:

(I mean really, a Grand Canyon carved out by water in less than millions of year??? Physics don't lie.)

Physics can lie but not God’s Word. When Jesus called lazarus from the dead there was no physics or biology there. It was instant and it was supernatural. When God divided the red sea there is no physics it is supernatural. How can it be true? God said that to Israel in many places “I am the God one who brought you out of Egypt with signs and wonders”.

We can take a word, twist and turn to our comfort. For e.g. when Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God”. We can argue and debate and say what kind of God is this who make his children starve. No brother it simply means above all these things even your eating, you should live by every word of God. For this reason Jesus said ”unless you become like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of God”. Children have innocence and they believe whatever their parents said it is true. There are so many things in the bible which we do not understand but wait for the Holy Spirit to teach. You have to understand one thing this race is not for the swift or the intelligent one but for the one who endures.

Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will lead you into the truth. Whatever is of mine he will take and declare it to you. One thing we lack today is patience.

You quote:

If you want to win converts to Christianity, you need to make the parameters less difficult to comprehend and more believable. I fear your version of Christianity is irrationally exclusionary, because you have much higher requirements for faith and belief than did Jesus.

Sorry brother. We have to live in God’s standard and it never changes. I am the God of Jacob, I change not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Like Paul says we should not peddle the word of God. He is a Holy God. It still requires holiness to see him.

Jesus said, ”Why you call me Lord Lord and do not do the things which I commanded you to do?” you see where we fail.

You quote:

You are right about one thing, I couldn't care less whether Mary was a virgin. Kirshna is claimed to be born of a virgin as well. Big whuppdedo. His followers can exalt him with such superlatives all day long and it doesn't change a thing. I believe that Jesus was the son of God because of his righteous words and deeds conveyed through several witnesses in the Gospels. Not all of these witnesses need to be completely accurate for me to have an understanding of who Jesus was and what His purpose was. No, to argue against Jesus is to argue against love. and that is clearly foolishness. God bless you all.

So many people claimed so many things but there is only one truth. Even muslims say how God can have a son? Then we have to accommodate for them also.

When God said in Isaiah “ there is no other gods besides Me” means it is. So I don’t have to worry about who is claiming. It is absolutely necessary that you have to believe that Jesus birth was a virgin birth. One thing I do. I read old testament I believe every word and I believe all that is summed up in Jesus. Now I follow Jesus who reveals things which I want to know (In His time) for eg. Why certain incidents happened in the old testament period?. In Corinthians Paul says it is for our admonition and correction and we should be careful.

Brother I may not be good in writing but I think I have conveyed the message to you. Faith is the essential part of our being and every word of God is valuable. We cannot add to it or we cannot take out something from it.

May God lead you into His truth.

In Jesus Christ
Shankar


_________________
Shankar

 2005/1/5 6:29Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
You know that I am not a 'young earther' and Moses lived for 120 years, rather than hundreds. Although if you want to see what hydraulic power can do in a short space of time you have just had a powerful reminder in the Indian Ocean.



When I studied apologetics in the early days I studied the distructive force of the Tsunami. It was then that I knew that the force of water was far greater than we ever knew. I hold the primordial canopy view as it seems most plausable. One of many things to consider is that the earth's magnetic field has a half life of 1500 years. There was a time when the earth was in symphonic equilibrium. I have heard that Russian mathmaticians using quantum algebra have fed in all the variables and determined earth the be young. Either way, there is not enough time for the complexity of all that exists on earth to happen even if we eliminate entropy. Time + chance does not equal life. Time + chance = death.

I have seen the Grand Canyon from both North and South rim. I have also been to Monument Valley, Bryce Canyon, and Zion. My impressions, especially at Monument Valley are that what we see is a monument to the world that then was. it is a reminder to those who are willingly ignorant of the world that then was. Not the gap theory version of the world that then was, but the pre-deluge world of Genesis 6. Again, it don't matter in the end because there is still not enough time for so-called evolutionary progress to overcome attrition.

I have a whole arsenol of information on the flood for those interested. And nearly all the info was compiled before the net was popular, so it is real book research. :-)


God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/5 9:32Profile





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