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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : REVIVAL: It REQUIRES OBEDIENCE by A W Tozer

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ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Yes, Jesus-is-God, I do not like to use the word 'obey', it makes it look like we are saving ourselves. I much prefer the word conform much more.

In the OT, we had to obey God's commands, the Mosaic Laws.

In the NT, it is God who transforms our very nature that we may conform to His nature, through the work of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Per your request on the word obey in the NT, I will provide a good word study on the words that are being translated as obey.

It's late and I am going to bed.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/9/30 3:43Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

It looks a bit as if you are re-negotiating Gods terms & laws, what once had a specified substance has now a new name with unspecified content. So as to not establish any personal commitment other than agreeing about the expression. Very much attorney like.

Now you are turning in circles trying to connect the pieces that can obviously not be taken at face value of any words' basic meaning, because of the pre-text of categorizing them in different covenants before regarding any of them as personally relevant. Mix that with a basic law and commandments phobia. I think it's not a definition issue, it's heart issue. You want conform to God's nature, but not His authority. Do I have to point out who else wants to be like God but hates His laws?

Let's ask a practial question Art: What is the least of Jesus' commandments ? Ist it part of your list? And why is that a kingdom relevant issue, and for whom? My take on "for whom" is : "Whosoever" - that's why it's relevant:

Matthew 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 2011/9/30 4:25Profile









 Re: REVIVAL: It REQUIRES OBEDIENCE by A W Tozer

Act 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things;

and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obeyG3980 Him."


G3980
πειθαρχέω
peitharcheō
pi-tharkh-eh'-o
From a compound of G3982 and G757; to be persuaded by a ruler, that is, (generally) to submit to authority; by analogy to conform to advice: - hearken, obey (magistrates).



While you're at it, Art - do word studies on the words "obedience", "disobedience", "repent", "repentance", "iniquity" and "keep", as in "Keep My words and keep My Commandments".



I'm sure you're aware of verses that speak of the following conditions -


1Co 6:9,10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.



Col 3:5,6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience



1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.



Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 2011/9/30 4:27
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Trust and Obey... for there's no other way!

I have been considering of late that true 'biblical' FAITH is simply defined as..'to Trust and Obey'. Not obedience to a list of written laws, but obedience to the Lordship of Christ.
Faith is always evidenced by works, which is in essence trusting what God says and obeying it. Isn't this what James teaches and also the testimony of those in Hebrews 11. Oh and what about what Jesus said: "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH the will of my Father..." Are you a DOER? If not he will say "depart from me you who practice iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23). Do we fail? Yes. Do we always obey? No, but should we obey? Obsolutely!

Trust and Obey, for there's no other way!


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Dave

 2011/9/30 5:39Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
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 Re:



hupakouo - to hear under (as a subordinate), this is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

This word is akin to our obedience toward a police man. He is to be obeyed within limits fixed by law.

hupotasso - to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto) be (put) into subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

This word is akin to the obedience of a slave to his master, he owns you, you do what he tells you to do, no questions asked.

pi-tharkh-eh'-o: you defined it well, to be persuaded by a ruler, to conform to advice, particularly by one who is a master of that advice.

To replace any of the above definitions, simply with the word 'obey', does their meanings an injustice. And there are other greek words that get translated 'obey'.

So Paul writes these lists

We have the King James Bible to blame for this, but at that time they did the best they can do with the limited resources they had at that time period. Today we have a wealth early manuscripts and excellent Biblical scholars.

What is planet of Earth made of? Matter.
What are stars made of? Matter
What is light made of? Matter
What are the differences of types 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 stars? Matter

These answers are all true, But the answers are worthless in understanding these phenomena. Their definitions must go beyond the word 'matter' if we want to have any true understanding of them.

The same goes for the KJV. Using the word 'obey' for words with differing shades of meaning loses what scripture is actually revealing.

Next, you convey long lists of do not 'behaviors' from the Apostle Paul from Colossians, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Thessalonians,

I can only reason that you wrote these lists cause they help you to somehow obey them, that is, to not do them. Your check list of sins to be avoided, as you work to become completely obedient.

It must be good to be a rock or an Island, they never commit any of those things.

As for me, none of those things thrill me either. In fact, they are completely boring, vain distractions in a mad world. I do not need to obey, I have no desire for them, they are repulsive.

If I wanted something, it would be a good friend, with a heart to heart relationship, two kindred spirits. Companions who care for each other and enjoy each others company. Where is the Law against that? I'd like to know. I would love to break it.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/9/30 18:33Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/31
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 Re:

Art,

It doesn't make sense to raise up the 'sinless perfection' straw man here. Neither of Tozer's articles argue for that nor do they promote the Law of Moses so can we just leave that straw man down.

What he is arguing is that there is no true faith that does not promote obedience. The New Testament declares this is many places, for example see Romans 15:18; Romans 16:19; 2Corinthians 7:15; and James 2.

To quote Matthew Henry, "The act of faith is the obedience of the understanding to God revealing, and the product of that is the obedience of the will to God commanding." (see the entry on Romans 1:5 in Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2011/9/30 20:38Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
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 Re:

InTheLight,

What is the 'Sinless perfection' strawman?

I never claimed to be sinless. In fact, i stated that I am sinner. As such, would I not still be disobedient since I continue to sin. And If 1 John 8-10 is true. then everyone on this forum sins just as I am, ongoing sinners, and presumably disobedient too. I've always been honest with God, So why would I go around claiming I am obedient to God, I would feel like I am lying.

Is anyone here claiming that one can still commit sins and also be called obedient to God.

And can anyone here explain how a Greek word that plainly means 'attentive listening' is translated to be 'obedient'? God has my ear, but I am not sinless.

As far as I can see, the only way I may be counted as obedient to God, is by my accepting Jesus blood shed on the cross has washed away all my sins, past - present- future, for all time. By accepting this 'gift' from God, God sees me as obedient through His Son's innocent blood shed obediently on the cross, and because I by faith I believe this.

If you all are willing to accept this explanation, only then could it be that I have been obedient to God because I believed Him. And I do believe Him, His words and His WORD.

What do you say? Anyone?



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Arthur Biele

 2011/9/30 22:59Profile
MyVeryHeart
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Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Brother,

It is important for me personally to be obedient to the commands of Jesus because he says to me "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome"(1 John 5:3).

So I pray for the opportunity to obey his commandments and he fills me with his Spirit so that I can love others as Christ loved me and "by this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments" (1 John 5:2).

What a privilege to obey the Lord of Lords and the
King of Kings!!!!

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you (John 15:12-14).

Jesus is my best friend and I just want to do
what he tells me to do.

Love,

Travis


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Travis

 2011/9/30 23:13Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
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 Re:

Nice post Travis:

Have you stopped sinning completely?

I am not being Facetious. I have not stopped sinning, not that I am proud of it, it simply is true. I believe your post to be very good, you hit the nail on the head.

I know you love God and I believe just about everyone who posts here also loves God and seek to please Him.

There are Three Laws of Christ in the NT.

Jas 2:8-9

I. THE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

Jesus stated it partially in His Sermon on the Mount:

Mt 5:43-45
YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus states it in full as His earthly ministry is nearing His crucifixion:

Mt 22:34-40

34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 " On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The 2nd Law is called the perfect Law,

II. THE LAW OF LIBERTY:

Jas 1:25
But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the Law of Liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Here are the axioms of the Law of Liberty:

Mt 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Jas 2:11-13
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGEMENT.

If you want God to forgive your sins, and yes - we all sin, be kind and forgive others of their sins, and God will mercifully forgive you of your sins.

Jesus says this too:

Lk 6:37-38

37 " Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."
NASU

III. THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS.

ROMANS 1 THROUGH 7 IS ONE LONG ARGUMENT LEADING UP TO CHAPTER 8. THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IS THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS OUR HELPER, THROUGH WHOM GOD TRANSFORMS OUR VERY NATURE SO THAT WE MAY DO THE GOOD THAT GOD CREATED US TO DO.

Ro 8:1-8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

THE DESCRIPTION OF THIS 3RD LAW GOES ON THROUGH CHAPTER 8.

The amazing thing about these three laws is they do not burden us, but rather, they are fun and most profitable to keep. By them, God keeps us. These are the Laws of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant.


I. The Royal Law of Love.

II. The Law of Liberty.

III. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Embracing these LAWS is my obedience. And they are not burdensome in any way. But pure joy to keep.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/10/1 0:14Profile
MyVeryHeart
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Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Brother,

I don't really know if I've stopped sinning completely. Or if I will sin tommorrow. Or ever again. I only know about today. I was really upset when the books fell out of my backpack today. I don't believe I handled the situation in my heart perfectly. So I told God I was sorry and repented, I have faith that he will graciously provide his Spirit so that my heart will remain repentant and I will not sin like that again.

God Bless,

Travis


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Travis

 2011/10/1 0:54Profile





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