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dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re: Scripture vs Experience

Scripture ALWAYS trumps experience.

The Bible MUST be our final authority.

The example of "joy" in your first post IS NON-Biblical and totally experiential.






 2011/9/28 0:06Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Have you?

This is in plain language:

Reinhart Bonnke was clearly a prime mover in the Holy Laughter Movement. He passed "The Power" to Rodney Howard Browne, and we now know that Browne was, until that day, a drop out and academic reject from the Rhema Movement. Browne got his prima donna debut, and he became the "bar tender" of Satan in the drunken orgies of Holy Laughter, from which thousands of Charismatics have fled in fear and embarrassment. Have you?

 2011/9/28 0:37Profile









 Re: Have you?

Quote:
This is in plain language:

Reinhart Bonnke was clearly a prime mover in the Holy Laughter Movement. He passed "The Power" to Rodney Howard Browne, and we now know that Browne was, until that day, a drop out and academic reject from the Rhema Movement. Browne got his prima donna debut, and he became the "bar tender" of Satan in the drunken orgies of Holy Laughter, from which thousands of Charismatics have fled in fear and embarrassment. Have you?



Really a vicious and judgmental attack on another believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. But I've said it before, there are a lot of religious spirits hanging out on this board. I wish the moderators would delete your vicous and scathing attack. You could state your disbelief in this movement without the hatred.

I've got a verse for you chief. "Any man that hateth his brother is a murderer and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

You love to quote scripture. How did you like that one?

Hey chief, I never even said I got the "Holy Laughter". If you would bother to read my post you would see that isn't what I said at all. No sir, I never got the holy laughter. It didn't manifest in my life that way. In a lot of other folks, yes it did.

Now here is part of my testimony when I was sitting in the back of this same church about 3 years later in 1995. I hope you will understand that I'm not a "Holy Laughter" fanatic:

In 1995 I was sitting in the back of Calvary Cathedral International church in downtown Ft. Worth, and I prayed as earnestly as ever, "Lord I wish a tornado would come through here and destroy all this". I prayed that because I believed that the "laughter movement" from when Rodney Howard-Brown was there 3 years before had just gotten out of control. I don't question however that it was a very real movement of God and a blessing to the church. Also, the acoustics in that round building were horrible because of so much reverberation. Well, five years later that is what happened. A tornado touched down and stayed over the church for 2.5 minutes. The building was destroyed, but not a single person was hurt. The church was fully staffed at the time. They bought another church about 3 miles away that used to be Midtown Church of Christ.

 2011/9/28 2:55
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re: Scripture

(I've NEVER prayed for a tornado to come and destroy ANYTHING ... To me THAT sounds REALLY judgmental and vicious).


I'm far from being vicious...

(The meaning of vicious is: "Deliberately cruel or violent.")

Truthful, yes. Vicious??? No..

Jeremiah 14:14




It saddens me to know that a contingent of professing Christians can be so easily deceived.

Without Holy Spirit controlled Bible teaching... we are without an anchor and are tossed about with every whim of doctrine.

And remember... You brought up Rodney Howard Browne... I didn't.



 2011/9/28 7:02Profile









 Re:

HI Endzone,

You wrote this to brother Greg...........

"Thank you brother, the audio quality is really bad, so I didn't make it through the whole thing. But it wasn't on the subject of joy, but it was on the subject of false preachers in the church."

If the subjct was joy, then why did you entitle the thread "The Rodney Howard Brown movement?" Why not talk about joy instead of invoking the name of a man? You asked about the movement and Greg gave you a sermon by David Wilkerson that speaks to that and other movements. You may disagree with brother David , and of course that is fine.

I have no idea what the source of your joy was on that particular occasion brother, but it neither authenitcates it or invalidates it, only Scripture has the power to do that. As someone who lived through the Holy laughter movement, and saw it destroy a large pentecostal church I attended, I can only speak of my own experience. This church had been around for 20 years. It had started when a Baptist preacher got baptized in the Holy Spirit and was kicked out of the Baptist church. He started it in his basement and it grew to become one of the early mega-churches, there was about 5000 folks. Its total focus was soul winning. Every single week for years and years the church witnessed dramatic conversions which only strenghtened the church. It was a free church in the sense that if you had a word you could stand up and give it. If you had a tongue you could stand up and deliver it and they would wait upon the interpretation. It was also focussed on missionaries and sent many out, indeed they supported about 55 different missionary familes.

Shortly after Toronto happened, Rodney Howard Brown was invited. The " service," consisted of about an hour and a half of " testimony," from Mr Brown on what had happened at other churches, talking about manifestations of laughter and writhing on the floor and making animal noises like lions and so on. He talked about how most of the time preaching could not be carried out because it was interuppted by laughing. After that he said okay, who wants the fire? And the conclusion of the service was a long line of people having hands laid upon them with the shout of " fire." If they did not fall down a louder shout of " fire," came.

Some amongst the congregation were horrified, many were excited. The church became an insular place where folks came seeking an experience. The focus on reaching souls was lost, the emphasis shifted from missionary work to " experience." Now remember, this was a church that moved in the sign gifts of the Lord as noted in Scripture. Fast forward three years. The pastor, a small balding overweight man, had run off with the sercratary and a large amnount of money. The church lay in shambles. The people who could not stomoch what had been going on left one after the other. The church was left to its " desires." That church now exists under a different name with a few hundred members.

I did have an interesting multiple e-mail exchange with Mr Brown. I found him to be very pleasant. The reason that I had contacted him back in the 90s was because he was claiming that revival had broken out in Scotland. I come from Scotland and its a very small country, you can fit it into Kansas three times. I e-mailed him and asked him why he was telling people that revival had broken out in Scotland when that was blatanly not true. And so went our e-mails back and forward where we spoke of " laughter," and other such issues.

Just one final point endzone. There is counterfiet and the enemy does use it. There are many " pagan," movements who experience "ecstacy." But, I also believe that if God wanted to reach and touch a man, whether it was at a Rodney Howard Brown service, or Benny Hinn or any other man that I would consider to not be Biblical, I believe that He could, He is soveriegn. The way for me personally to tell if what someone has experienced is genuine is that when someone has a genuine experience with God, they magnify God, not any man. God is elevated, not the church, not the leader, not the movement. The work of the Holy Spirit is to magnify Jesus in the hearts of believers. They would never attribute their experience to a man or a movement, but to God alone, He would get all of the praise and all of the glory, but thats just my own way of discerning.............brother Frank

 2011/9/28 7:43









 Re:

Quote:
Some amongst the congregation were horrified, many were excited. The church became an insular place where folks came seeking an experience. The focus on reaching souls was lost, the emphasis shifted from missionary work to " experience." Now remember, this was a church that moved in the sign gifts of the Lord as noted in Scripture. Fast forward three years. The pastor, a small balding overweight man, had run off with the sercratary and a large amnount of money. The church lay in shambles. The people who could not stomoch what had been going on left one after the other. The church was left to its " desires." That church now exists under a different name with a few hundred members.



Brother Frank, thank you for your very civil and humble response. Reading your quote above, let me ask you something. How long did Rodney Howard-Brown stick around? Wasn't it just a couple of weeks or less? After he leaves, isn't it the church leadership that decides that want to make a doctrine out of this experience? And, you are right, it was just an experience--nothing more. It wasn't suppossed to be anything more. Was it Rodney Howard-Brown's fault that the pastor ran off with the church secretary and the money? Isn't Rodney Howard-Brown just a convenient excuse for this man's actions? If Rodney Howard-Brown was working in the power of the demonic as the other poster suggest, didn't the pastor of this Toronto church have the authority and ability to break the power of Satan and his demons?

See, basing a church movement on this experience of Rodney Howard-Brown's ministry is where the error comes in. This is exactly what happened at Calvary Cathedral International in Ft. Worth, TX. Rodney Howard-Brown stayed for weeks. I don't fault Brown for that, but I do believe it was the pastor of the church that made a demonination out of this short experience. The whole purpose of Brown's ministry was a taste of what is to come. It wasn't meant to be something that you make a church doctrine out of. This is why I prayed that day at the back of the church 3 years later, "Lord I wish a tornado would come thorugh here and destroy all this". I mean that was one of the reasons I prayed that. Maybe you can say my praying that prayer and the tornado coming 5 years later is just coincidence. That's fine. But I think you want to attribute the failing of the church leadership in that Toronto church to the Rodney Howard-Browne movement being Satantic. Maybe in that sense it was Rodney Howard-Brown's failure to warm church leadership not to make a whole new church movement out of something that was only suppossed to be an experience in the Lord. We all have experiences in the Lord you know--that one time the Lord spoke to us audibly, that one time the Lord showed us a vision, that one time the Lord did this amazing miraculous thing in your life--do you know what I mean?

So here is my one final point brother. This ministry was indeed of the Holy Spirit. At Calvary Cathedral International, when RHB yelled "fire", some people fell down and some didn't. If they didn't fall down, RHB might give it a second try or else he would go on. He sometimes put his hand on someone and sometimes he didn't. Most people got the laughter, and some people like myself got the wave of Holy Spirit water that seemed like a river flowing up and down of pure joy. I never saw anybody bark like dogs and carry on swarming around on the ground as you describe about the experienc in Toronto. BTW, I was a catcher guy at every meeting. Back then I was still very strong physically. I saw it all up close. In fact one time RHB rebuked me and said brother dont twist to the side when you catch people because I was dumping into other folks that were falling. He told me to just let people fall staright back, and he was right. Later he told me "very nicely done" after I caught one of the biggest guys there. This is something you don't see too much anymore either--catchers standing behind people.

DON'T ATTRIBUTE THIS MINISTRY TO THE WORK OF SATAN BECAUSE OF THE FAILURE OF YOUR CHURCH LEADERHSHIP. And if RHB sent you emails saying revival broke out in Scotland, that should have been your first clue--revival is a temporary thing--not a church doctrine. If RHB was encouraging church pastors to make a doctrine or a new movement out of this experience, I believe he was very wrong to do that, but I have no knowledge of that.

Thanks,
Endzone

PS just thinking of some of the stuff he said that was funny:

1. First church of the frigidaire
2. The story about the time he received 2 boxes of asparagus after teacing and preaching in a church in South africa all week.
3. Making fun of folks who were trying to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by saying "Rhondo Shandi, tie my bow tie".



 2011/9/28 12:18
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Ministers of Lasciviousness

Here is a sermon by Carter Conlon that was preached at the time this phenomenon was popular in the U.S. and Canada.

He speaks pretty clearly to this type of ministry as a judgment from God and not a blessing. It's worth listening to.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2251&commentView=itemComments


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2011/9/28 12:56Profile









 Re:

I actually met RHB and was in a church that had him come for a series of meetings back in the day.

I dont know where RHB is today, but I can safely say that what he was teaching back then was false doctrine through and through. At least back then he was a false teacher, and no, I disagree that what he was doing had anything to do with the Holy Spirit even though I was convinced back then that it did.

The reason I was there back in the day was because I was immature, ignorant of the Bible... and very deceived.

Like I said, I have no idea where or what RHB is doing or at these days. I truly hope he has repented of his former foolishness.

Reinhart Bonnke... dont get me started on this guy. He claims to have raised people from the dead... but apparently they wander off or something afterwards because he has never been able to produce one person who he raised from the dead. Pretty easy to get lost in those remote African locations... which is conveniently where these resurrections always seem to take place. It's never in Chicago or Kansas.

Sorry, you voiced your thoughts on the matter. These are mine, brother EndZone.

Krispy

 2011/9/28 13:01









 Re:

HI Endzone,

The failure of the church leadership where I attended and the whole "Toronto blessing," is two different subjects. RHB came once, but it was never about him, it was about people who were bored with their " Christianity,' and were looking for an experience. I just used RHB as a good example of that movement. He only came to our church once. But the "Toronto blessing,' so called was a movement that was hitting just about every penetecostal church to one degree or another. Typically it was someone or a group of people going to Toronto and " bringing it back." This whole movement was what brother David Wilkerson was talking about in this and other sermons. I have a video of him on my website, weeping because of these so called manifestations. I also attended a home group for five years. I left for a year to go to Scotland to share the Gospel, and when I came back I was shocked at what had happened to the home-group. We used to start out with some worship, then Bible study, then prayer. When I came back, it had been taken over by the laughing thing. The meeting consisted of someone putting in a video of RHB or others, and then just basicly start laughing, only to me it sounded more like mocking. It was anything but spiritual brother. I did not go back, although I have remained friends with many in the group even till this day. The people who really pushed this in the home-group, I had to wacth their marriage deterioate and them both finally quit going to church, very sad. To listen to them now you would think they were athiests, or new agers.

When I think of the fruit of the Welsh revival or the fruit of the Lewis revival I think of transformed lifes, pubs closing down, crime rates falling, missionaries being called, men entering the minsitries. The fruit of these revivals transformed communities. When I see what has happened to the American church in the last 20 years, it is the exact opposite. The spiritual landscape is barren today. There is a famine in the land. Young folks are leaving the churches in droves, the spiritual climate of this country is at its lowest ebb. According to Barna, this is the most Biblicaly illiterate generation in 300 years. This, I believe, is part of the fruit produced by an insular group of people who traveled from meeting to meeting seeking the next " experience." The Word of God was not preached, and Calvary lost its central place in worship. Thats how I see it brother, we may disagree, we probably will, but that is what I have seen right here in the middle of the Bible belt. God bless you endzone........brother Frank

 2011/9/28 13:14
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

I would recommend looking up some sermons by Jacob Prasch on this subject. Many can be found here on this website. Some of the soundest doctrine I've come across.

Here;

http://media.sermonindex.net/17/SID17729.mp3

Listen to it and consider what's being said. Just a warning though, make sure very well that your standard is God's Word and not your own experience before you listen to this.

Just a broad sermon on true Biblical revival in general.

 2011/9/28 13:14Profile





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