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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re: MacArthur on Beer, Bohemianism, and True Christian Liberty

"Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble."(1Cor.8:4-13)NKJV

"1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin."(Romans 14)NKJV


_________________
Oracio

 2011/8/15 22:57Profile









 Re:

Comparing soda to alcohol - as far as what alters brain function?

I don't drink soda, but we're losing the message of the opening post fast here.

How many marriages have been broken up over soda?
Or folks that have lost their job or beat their wives or kids because of soda intake?
Or how many soda drinkers cause car accidents with multiple deaths every day?
Or lost all inhabitions and left a bar with a woman because they drank soda?
How can we get off on soda compared to the affects on a person who gets snared with alcohol?

Maybe they have an AA for soda-holics. I don't know - but this thread seems shot from what MacArthur was trying to relate to his people. Songs about a new law, etc.
He started out talking about 'Churches serving up alcoholic drinks to the congregation' ... I assume for New Years Eve or something like that.

I think John MacArthur and Greg had good intentions for posting this message.
Maybe Matt 24:37-39?




eta: Amen, Brother Oracio.

 2011/8/15 22:58
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

I hadn't read the article before, so I went back and read it and wanted to comment on one particular thing he said:

Quote:
After all, in a culture where cool is everything, what could be a better lubricant for one's testimony than a frosty pint?


I think it basically comes down to wanting the applause of the world rather than the applause of Heaven. I find this quote from one of my favorite authors to be appropriate.

"What has happened to the church? Do the holy angels look down and sadly shake their heads to find us worshiping wantonly at the feet of culture instead of at the feet of Christ? The cool mind is a renegade running free within the modern church system due largely to the fact that we have lost our concern over what Heaven thinks. Instead, the bride of Christ is gazing longingly toward the world, toward its universities, toward its fashion magazines, towards its culturally refined personalities, as she asks with shifting feet and uncertain stance, "How do I look? Do you like me? Do you want me? Do you approve?" These seem to be the questions foremost on our mind. And like a lonely teenage girl hungry for love, it would appear that we are willing to do almost anything to get the answers we most want to hear.
We are supposed to be a people who live only for the adoration and attention of that One who loved us, even unto death." - Eric Ludy

(I don't agree that the bride of Christ is the one doing this, so much as so-called "christians". But this propensity to want the worlds approval is in all of us and we definitely need to be careful to guard against it.)


_________________
Veronica

 2011/8/15 22:59Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold".
Matthew 24:12


_________________
Travis

 2011/8/15 23:15Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Jesus-is-GOD said:

Quote:
How many marriages have been broken up over soda?
Or folks that have lost their job or beat their wives or kids because of soda intake?
Or how many soda drinkers cause car accidents with multiple deaths every day?
Or lost all inhabitions and left a bar with a woman because they drank soda?
How can we get off on soda compared to the affects on a person who gets snared with alcohol?



I wasn't saying that soda was as bad "morally" (I don't know if that's the right word...) than alcohol. I don't touch the stuff. I don't like the way even a sip makes me feel and I would preach total abstinence. But alcohol isn't the problem!! Alcohol is a SYMPTOM of a deeper disease. Namely addiction which is idolatry. It doesn't matter how much you preach against alcohol consumption if you don't point them back to the ROOT, namely idolatry, then your not doing any good. It's like giving someone cough syrup, it treats the symptoms not the disease.
And even if we're talking about believers drinking alcohol once in a while, it isn't necessarily "you should be abstinent" but "are you willing to GIVE UP your rights for the sake of Jesus and others?" (Believers having "rights" is laughable because if you're born again you weren't born into a democracy you were born into a dictatorship, so to speak. So as believer you have no "rights." You either do what God says or you don't and get punished/disciplined. So why is it so hard to give them up, when you shouldn't have them anyway?) If they don't want to or refuse to give it up, then the issue goes back to idolatry and pride.

As I said before, my point wasn't to say that soda is as bad as alcohol. My point was that ALL addictions are bad (idolatry) and so we should probably "condemn" them all and at least be consistent.

The problem with these "pastors" in the article might not be addiction or alcoholism, but they are prostitutes. They want the applause of the world rather than of God. They love the world more than they love God, which is prostitution, which is idolatry. So I guess it all goes back to breaking that first commandment and not loving the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. But we all knew this was coming. Scripture said it would:
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be... lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power." - 2 Timothy 3:1-2, and 4-5
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4


_________________
Veronica

 2011/8/15 23:39Profile
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

I do not even know the meaning of mixed marital arts? This article speaks to things that may very well make a saint look like an unbeliever. This should never be so and we should not desire to be encumbered by the vices of the world that would draw us from God and compromise our witness. We do live in this world and we are warned not to conform to it. It is not the exercise of liberty that is at question, for then it would not be liberty. It is its abuse. Oracio offered 1st Corinthians 8 and Romans 14 to address the liberty one can abuse around the the weak in faith. We must, using the God given discernment we are given, know when to exercise refrain of liberty. To do this properly is to love our brother and God will test this as He does all things. We must however, be very careful that we do not set about composing rules of conduct which usurp the Spirits work and in turn fan the flames of dead works. This poses an even greater danger than the abuse of liberty and we should be most careful to not have part in it's cultivation.

 2011/8/16 10:12Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Saints,

The reason that I posted in this thread was simply to point out the things that people believe to be true, but are not found anywhere in the bible. Again, there is NO SCRIPTURE IN THE WORD that points to total abstinence regarding alcohol, none. Additionally, I heard on Line of Fire from Dr. Mike Brown that he held the same position based on his own study of the word (which shocked me).

When we allow the traditions of man to 'make us even better' than what God's Word instructs, we are sitting in the same place that the Pharisees did. God's law was not enough for them, they had to make even more rules and codes for men to follow, while rejecting the spirit of the law. They had to perfect what God had given.

Look back to the first post that I made on this thread and you will see my personal struggles regarding the subject. HOWEVER, I'm not going to judge another person based on their use OR lack of use regarding alcohol.

It's also amazing to me to see people's position on the matter, no one here is condoning ABUSE (addiction) or LAWLESSNESS (driving while intoxicated) yet the topic is so caustic that we can't have a reasonable discussion on the matter. With some they have two extremes, abstinence and addiction bundled with extreme emotion.

Would I condone using alcohol at a church function? ABSOLUTELY NOT

Would I judge a man because he drinks alcohol in moderation?
ABSOLUTELY NOT

Additionally, what I am pointing out is the Pharisaical attitude that we see from many believers today, it's a stench in God's nostrils.

 2011/8/16 13:01Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re:

God made tobacco, he made grapes, poppies from which heroin is made, and so on...The carnal mind can say that if God made these things and that he gives us all things to enjoy we are at liberty to do so. But it is like a lot of other things he made: they are to be used with discretion and moderation.

Consider tobacco: it makes a wonderful pesticide. I have gone to the grocery store and purchased boxes of chewing tobacco for this purpose. I also made sure the people who sold it to me knew what I was up to.

Wine: Paul admonishes Timothy to take some for stomach's sake, implying it has medicinal uses. How much medicine does one take for sicknesses? A tablespoon at most. How many folks limit their alcohol consumption to one tablespoon?

Opiates: a very useful drugs to deal with pain. Dr. Dobson has said the best antidote to addiction to these substances is pain, implying that it can be used to deal with pain. It used to be even restricted in even giving it to terminally ill people because of fears of addiction...but I think this attitude is changing. It is helpful in dealing with pain but in limited and measured doses.

Recreational uses of these substances will result in mind altering affecting your treatment of others. You will become the purveyor of strife, conflict, abuse of others, lose moral restraints....all of this is sin and doom one to hell.

My husband used to hire a Choctaw male in his work. He was an excellent worker BUT he drank alcoholic beverages on weekends and his life as an individual is a mess. The saying is that American Indians are much more sensitive to the ravages of alcohol then Caucasians. One never knows who can take one drink and be hooked. Since it is not essential for life we do well respecting its potency and abstain except for medicinal uses.

(The mother of our nieces who are victims of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome will not allow ANYTHING in the house that has alcohol because of these girls' vulnerability - if they would just get a taste of it, it could pull them over the edge to alcoholism.)

"It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities. The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze."

AMEN!



_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/8/16 13:09Profile









 Re:

God made sex... and we can see how thats been perverted. So whole idea that if God created something so we should be able to have the liberty to abuse it goes out the window.

Enough said.

Krispy

 2011/8/16 13:15









 Re:

These issues with "young, restless & reformed" is just a classic example of a lack of spiritual maturity... and rebelliousness.

Used to be the reformed movement was strong on holiness. The next generation has turned the Doctrines of Grace into "cheap grace"

Krispy

 2011/8/16 13:33





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