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 Re:

I've noticed a very steady moving away from making His Word in it's entirety our Only source of how the Church is to operate.
Just studying Paul's life in Acts and through his Epistles alone should show how he dealt with false gospels and heretics. Pulling a verse here and there is not how Paul wrote his letters.
How did he deal with those who spread false beliefs and false gospels in the Church?
We've departed from The Word so badly, things are getting almost unrecognizable - not being the Scriptural Church anymore.
What a slippery slope it's turned out to be.
Thank GOD for the few men that are ready, willing and able to protect any new converts that they can or the Biblically illiterate from heresies.
The Christians in Africa are suffering because of these American hirelings ... just for some.
We need to return to Sola Scriptura to prevent any further apostasy. It's as simple as that.
Thank you Brothers.

 2011/8/8 12:12
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I definitely agree with this, I did a study in the Corinthians and Paul is talking about the order of worship (not a church bulletin) but how the church should operate under the Holy Spirit. We don't see that AT ALL in about 99% of our churches today.

There is definitely a need to return to what God's Word saids rather than Joeshmo expert on how to bring people in.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/8 12:23Profile









 Re: Jfi

 2011/8/8 12:58









 Re:

Quote:
But its always my prayer that I remain in a spirit of humility rather a spirit of critism and this is really what I am trying to address.



As you should be! Amen to that... please dont misunderstand me. We need to confront heresies and heretics with full humility understanding that positionally we are holy, but in our lives we too still sin and fall short.

I think a mistake a lot of folks make is that they think confronting a false teacher is about trying to help them see the error of their ways. It is NOT.

Confronting or exposing a false teacher is all about protecting believers from these wolves! I can not think of one instance in the New Testament where one single false teacher or heretic saw the error of their ways and repented as a result of being confronted by the apostles. (dont say Peter, he was being a hypocrite, not a heretic)

Thats why private meetings with heretics is not suggested in the Bible. The Bible says just the opposite "avoid them", "have nothing to do with them", etc.

We have private meetings with those in the church who you see sinning... with the intention of helping them repent and being restored into a right relationship with the Lord.

There is NO such command in scripture for false teachers. What did the apostles say to one false prophet? "May your money perish with you!"

There was one instance where a woman was delivered from demonic possession that allowed her to prophecy... thats different too. She was under the control of demons. Scripture does not imply this about false teachers or prophets. Clearly the implication is that they are well under their own conrtol.

Krispy

 2011/8/8 13:00









 Re:

If these discussions were taking place in the 16th century you would be burning the heretics at the stake instead of hurling verbal inecctives from your key boards. History tells of what evangelicals have done to heretics. There was Calvin who had Sevetus burned at the stake in Geneva. Then there were the reformers who had the Anabaptist either drowned or burned at the stake. The Ababaotist for the most part were fellow believers. Then there were the Salem witch trials. How many young women were accused of being a witch and put to death? All under church sanction. I might add this was the protestant church that initiated the preceding examples.

We forgot why the brother opened this thread. Yet the thing he called attention to is being done. I keep hearing defending the truth. Honestly this is not the way to do it. If we want to defend the truth then let's be the truth. Let the reality of Jesus Christ be seen in your lives that the counterfeit is exposed. Go back and look at 1 John. That book was written to combat the gnostic heresy. Yet John exhorts his hearers to wm in truth AND LOVE.

I read in a brothers post that he spent hours analyzing what is false. I think that is the problem with some of these threads. We are so consumed with what is false. But what about what is TRUE. Phil.4:8 admonishes us to think about what is true. Namely him who is true, Jesus Christ.

It is said that Treasury agents are trained to detect countfeit bills by studying the real ones. They become so familiar with the real bill they imediately can detect a font one. Might I suggest that the energy being spent on exposing false prophets be spent on seeming Jesus.

Saints I guarantee you false prophets will always be around. You expose one another will take his place.
Better to spend time with him who is truth and learn his voice. Believe me it is less exhausting abnd you can leave those stones at the cross.

Submitted by Blaine Scogin

 2011/8/8 14:02









 Re:

I realize that the spirit of the age says otherwise, but listen to what Paul said to Gods people, day and night for years..........

Therefore I testify to you on this day that I am pure from the blood of all.
(Act 20:26)

For I did not keep back from declaring to you all the counsel of God.
(Act 20:27)

Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.
(Act 20:28)

For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
(Act 20:29)

Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.
(Act 20:30)

Therefore watch and remember that for the time of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
(Act 20:31)

God uses broken men to declare His Word. He uses men who, like Abraham, would intercede on behalf of Sodom. He uses men like Moses who would intercede on behalf of the Israelites. Gods people have compassion upon the multitude, they weep for a lost world, for the Spirit of the living God who so loved the world that He gave His only Son beats within their chests. There is a driving passion that I have seen in Godly men who weep for the state of the Church. They see the multitude as sheep without shepherds and vulnerable to the wolves who come in to devour.

These last days will not be for those of faint heart. Its time to gird up our loins as the Scriptures say, with Truth and take on the breastplate of righteousness. These are instructions to soldiers to take up the weapons of their warfare and stand fast in the evil day. The old hymn says " Though none go with you, still I will follow." This is the Spirit of our brothers and sisters down through the ages.

The righteous are as bold as lions. Its the same Spirit that burned in David as he tackles a bear and a lion, then he runs towards Goliath. The Hebrew children say to that old King that he may shove them in the fire, but even if God does not save them, they would never bow down to the gods of this world. Its the same Spirit that burned in all of those called upon in the first three centuries to go into the public square once a year, dip there fingers in oil and proclaim roman rulers as Gods, they would not and they died in the arena. Century after century, men, woman and children, with the Spirit of God burning in their chests would rather face the fire of man than lose the fire of God in their bones. Paul sings glory to God in the depths of the dungeon and the whole building shakes and the men are loosed from their bondages. Where is this Spirit burning in men today? Men who would rather die than dishonor their God. Oh I believe they are among us brothers and sisters, maybe even you who read this. The time is coming soon I believe where we may get to see such a display again in the West of men and woman sold out to the Living God above all else and with their whole hearts..........brother Frank

 2011/8/8 14:04









 Re:

Brother Martyr, I would recommend you go back and study your history a little closer before you level blanket accusations against the Reformers... particularly John Calvin. Your ignorance of the facts is horrendous.

Contrary to popular opinion, John Calvin did not have Sevetus burned at the stake. The courts did. John Calvin served as an expert witness during the trial (by court order) as to what the definition of "heretic" was. He actually argued for the court to have mercy on him. Calvin spent years arguing back and forth with this man trying to show him his error. Sevetus was such a heretic, and such an antagonist, that even the Catholic Church (which hated the courts of Geneva and all reformers) congratulated the courts when the verdict was rendered. Now-a-days, to ignorant 21st century believers who hate hearing the Doctrines of Grace... Sevetus is their hero. What does that tell you?

Did every reformer act according to scripture? No. But to imply that all or most reformers were blood thirsty heretic killers is patently false, easily refuted... and frankly, a lie.

Next your going to perhaps bring up the lie that Martin Luther hated Jews? (altho thats a popular lie, there is no truth in it... in fact, Luther went out of his way to share the gospel with Jews in his vicinity!)

Certainly the Salem witch trials, drowning Anabaptists, etc were wretched acts. But that was about 1% of what happened in the Reformation.

No one here is promoting killing heretics, and shame on you for suggesting such a thing.

May I remind you that bearing false witness against someone applies to dead people, my brother. A lie about a dead reformer is no different than repeating a lie about a brother who sits next to you in church.

Study church history.

Krispy

 2011/8/8 14:12
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Krispykritter said:
Next your going to perhaps bring up the lie that Martin Luther hated Jews? (altho thats a popular lie, there is no truth in it...


On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Part XI


"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

But when they boast that Moses allowed or commanded them to exact usury from strangers, citing Deuteronomy 23:20 apart from this they cannot adduce as much as a letter in their support we must tell them that there are two classes of Jews or Israelites. The first comprises those whom Moses, in compliance with God's command, led from Egypt into the land of Canaan. To them he issued his law, which they were to keep in that country and not beyond it, and then only until the advent of the Messiah. The other Jews are those of the emperor and not of Moses. These date back to the time of Pilate, the procurator of the land of Judah. For when the latter asked them before the judgment seat, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" they all said, "Crucify him, crucify him!" He said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" They shouted in reply, "We have no king but Caesar!" [Matt. 27:22; John 19:15]. God had not commanded of them such submission to the emperor; they gave it voluntarily.

But when the emperor demanded the obedience due him, they resisted and rebelled against him. Now they no longer wanted to be his subjects. Then he came and visited his subjects, gathered them in Jerusalem, and then scattered them throughout his entire empire, so that they were forced to obey him. From these the present remnant of Jews descended, of whom Moses knows nothing, nor they of him; for they do not deserve a single passage or verse of Moses. If they wish to apply Moses' law again, they must first return to the land of Canaan, become Moses' Jews, and keep his laws. There they may practice usury as much as strangers will endure from them. But since they are dwelling in and disobeying Moses in foreign countries under the emperor, they are bound to keep the emperor's laws and refrain from the practice of usury until they become obedient to Moses. For Moses' law has never passed a single step beyond the land of Canaan or beyond the people of Israel. Moses was not sent to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other nation with his law, but only to the people whom he led from Egypt into the land of Canaan, as he himself testifies frequently in Deuteronomy. They were expected to keep his commandments in the land which they would conquer beyond the Jordan.

Moreover, since priesthood, worship, government with which the greater part, indeed, almost all, of those laws of Moses deal have been at an end for over fourteen hundred years already, it is certain that Moses' law also came to an end and lost its authority. Therefore the imperial laws must be applied to these imperial Jews. Their wish to be Mosaic Jews must not be indulged. In fact, no Jew has been that for over fourteen hundred years.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

I hear it said that the Jews donate large sums of money and thus prove beneficial to governments. Yes, but where does this money come from? Not from their own possessions but from that of the lords and subjects whom they plunder and rob by means of usury. Thus the lords are taking from their subjects what they receive from the Jews, i.e., the subjects are obliged to pay additional taxes and let themselves be ground into the dust for the Jews, so that they may remain in the country, lie boldly and freely, blaspheme, curse, and steal. Shouldn't the impious Jews laugh up their sleeves because we let them make such fools of us and because we spend our money to enable them to remain in the country and to practice every malice? Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they suck the marrow from our bones. If it is right for a servant to give his master or for a guest to give his host ten florins annually and, in return, to steal one thousand florins from him, then the servant or the guest will very quickly and easily get rich and the master or the host will soon become a beggar.

And even if the Jews could give the government such sums of money from their own property, which is not possible, and thereby buy protection from us, and the privilege publicly and freely to slander, blaspheme, villify, and curse our Lord Jesus Christ so shamefully in their synagogues, and in addition to wish us every misfortune, namely, that we might all be stabbed to death and perish with our Haman, emperor, princes, lords, wife, and children -- this would really be selling Christ our Lord, the whole of Christendom together with the whole empire, and ourselves, with wife and children, cheaply and shamefully. What a great saint the traitor Judas would be in comparison with us! Indeed, if each Jew, as many as there are of them, could give one hundred thousand florins annually, we should nevertheless not yield them for this the right so freely to malign, curse, defame, impoverish by usury a single Christian. That would still be far too cheap a price. How much more intolerable is it that we permit the Jews to purchase with our money such license to slander and curse the whole Christ and all of us and, furthermore, reward them for this with riches and make them our lords, while they ridicule us and gloat in their malice. That would prove a delightful spectacle for the devil and his angels, over which they could secretly grin like a sow grins at her litter, but which would indeed merit God's great wrath.

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews. Lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, the blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, his dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. Do not aid and abet them in acquiring your money or your subjects' money and property by means of usury. We have enough sin of our own without this, dating back to the papacy, and we add to it daily with our ingratitude and our contempt of God's word and all his grace; so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews and over and above it all, to pay them for it with money and property. Let us consider that we are now daily struggling with the Turks, which surely calls for a lessening of our sins and a reformation of our life. With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

And you, my dear gentlemen and friends who are pastors and preachers, I wish to remind very faithfully of your official duty, so that you too may warn your parishioners concerning their eternal harm, as you know how to do, namely, that they be on their guard against the Jews and avoid them so far as possible. They should not curse them or harm their persons, however. For the Jews have cursed and harmed themselves more than enough by cursing the Man Jesus of Nazareth, Mary's son, which they unfortunately have been doing for over fourteen hundred years. Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not. Let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.

When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to your self: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods. Perhaps he has spat on the ground many times this very day over the name of Jesus, as is their custom, so that the spittle still clings to his mouth and beard, if he had a chance to spit. If I were to eat, drink or talk with such a devilish mouth, I would eat or drink myself full of devils by the dish or cupful just as I surely make myself a cohort of all the devils that dwell in the Jews and that deride the precious blood of Christ. May God preserve me from this!

We cannot help it that they do not share our belief. It is impossible to force anyone to believe. However. we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering. cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts, especially since they boast so proudly and despicably when we do help and serve them that God has ordained them as lords and us as servants. For instance, when a Christian kindles their fire for them on a Sabbath, or cooks for them in an inn whatever they want, they curse and defame and revile us for it, supposing this to be something praiseworthy, and yet they live on our wealth, which they have stolen from us. Such a desperate, thoroughly evil poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing. For if they punish thievery, robbery, murder, blasphemy, and other vices among us Christians, why should the devilish Jews be scot-free to commit their crimes among us and against us? We suffer more from them than the Italians do from the Spaniards, who plunder the host's kitchen, cellar, chest, and purse, and, in addition, curse him and threaten him with death. Thus the Jews, our guests, also treat us; for we are their hosts. They rob and fleece us and hang about our necks, these lazy weaklings and indolent bellies; they swill and feast, enjoy good times in our homes, and by way of reward they curse our Lord Christ, our churches, our princes, and all of us, threatening us and unceasingly wishing us death and every evil. Just ponder this: How does it happen that we poor Christians nourish and enrich such an idle and lazy people, such a useless, evil pernicious people, such blasphemous enemies of God, receiving nothing in return but their curses and defamation and every misfortune they may inflict on us or wish us? Indeed, we are as blind and unfeeling clods in this respect as are the Jews in their unbelief, to suffer such great tyranny from these vicious weaklings, and not perceive and sense that they are our lords, yes, our mad tyrants, and that we are their captives and subjects. Meanwhile they wail that they are our captives, and at the same time mock us -- as though we had to take this from them!

But if the authorities are reluctant to use force and restrain the Jews' devilish wantonness, the latter should, as we said, be expelled from the country and be told to return to their land and their possessions in Jerusalem, where they may lie, curse, blaspheme, defame, murder, steal, rob, practice usury, mock, and indulge in all those infamous abominations which they practice among us, and leave us our government, our country, our life, and our property, much more leave our Lord the Messiah, our faith, and our church undefiled and uncontaminated with their devilish tyranny and malice. Any privileges that they may plead shall not help them; for no one can grant privileges for practicing such abominations. These cancel and abrogate all privileges.

If you pastors and preachers have followed my example and have faithfully issued such warnings, but neither prince nor subject will do anything about it, let us follow the advice of Christ (Matthew 10:14) and shake the dust from our shoes, and say, "We are innocent of your blood." For I observe and have often experienced how indulgent the perverted world is when it should be strict, and, conversely, how harsh it is when it should be merciful. Such was the case with King Ahab, as we find recorded in I Kings 20. That is the way the prince of this world reigns. I suppose that the princes will now wish to show mercy to the Jews, the bloodthirsty foes of our Christian and human name, in order to earn heaven thereby. But that the Jews enmesh us, harass us, torment and distress us poor Christians in every way with the above mentioned devilish and detestable deeds, this they want us to tolerate, and this is a good Christian deed, especially if there is any money involved (which they have filched and stolen from us).

What are we poor preachers to do meanwhile? In the first place, we will believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is truthful when he declares of the Jews who did not accept but crucified him, "You are a brood of vipers and children of the devil [cf. Matt. 12:34]. This is a judgment in which his forerunner John the Baptist concurred, although these people were his kin. Now our authorities and all such merciful saints as wish the Jews well will at least have to let us believe our Lord Jesus Christ, who, I am sure, has a more intimate knowledge of all hearts than do those compassionate saints. He knows that these Jews are a brood of vipers and children of the devil, that is, people who will accord us the same benefits as does their father, the devil, and by now we Christians should have learned from Scripture as well as experience just how much he wishes us well.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnaping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason I should like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils. Nor do the Jews treat any others as they do us Christians. That is what I had in mind when I said earlier that, next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter and feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified, and cursed by them, and to suffer every evil at their hands -- these venomous serpents and devil's children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord and of us all. And if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind and worship this holy object. Then let him boast of his mercy, then let him boast that he has strengthened the devil and his brood for further blaspheming our dear Lord and the precious blood with which we Christians are redeemed. Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews in the eternal fire of hell!

That is speaking coarsely about the coarse cursing of the Jews. Others write much about this, and the Jews know very well that it is cursing, since they curse and blaspheme consciously. Let us also speak more subtly and, as Christians, more spiritually about this. Thus our Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew 10:40, "He who receives me receives him who sent me." And in Luke 10:16, "He who rejects you rejects me. And he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." And in John 15:23, "He who hates me hates my father also." In John 5:23, "That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him," etc.

These are, God be praised, clear and plain words, declaring that all that is done to the honor or to the dishonor of the Son is surely also done to the honor or to the dishonor of God the Father himself. We Christians cannot have or countenance any doubt of this. Whoever denies, defames, and curses Jesus of Nazareth, the Virgin Mary's Son, also denies, defames, and curses God the Father himself, who created heaven and earth. But that is what the Jews do, etc.

And if you say that the Jews do not believe or know this since they do not accept the New Testament, I reply that the Jews may know or believe this or that; we Christians, however, know that they publicly blaspheme and curse God the Father when they blaspheme and curse this Jesus. Tell me, what are we going to answer God if he takes us to account now or on the day of judgment, saying: "Listen, you are a Christian. You are aware of the fact that the Jews openly blasphemed and cursed my Son and Me, you gave them opportunity for it, you protected and shielded them so that they could engage in this without hindrance or punishment in your country, city, and house." Tell me: What will we answer to this?

Of course, we accord anyone the right not to believe *omissive et privatim* ["by neglect and privately'']; this we leave to every one's conscience. But to parade such unbelief so freely in churches and before our very noses, eyes, and ears, to boast of it, to sing it, teach it, and defend it, to revile and curse the true faith, and in this way lure others to them and hinder our people_that is a far, far different story. And this is not changed by the fact that the Jews do not believe the New Testament, that they are unacquainted with it, and that they pay it no heed. The fact remains that we are acquainted with it and that we cannot acquiesce in having the Jews revile and curse it in our hearing. To witness this and keep silent is tantamount to doing it ourselves. Thus the accursed Jews encumber us with their diabolical, blasphemous, and horrible sins in our own country."


_________________
Fifi

 2011/8/8 14:35Profile









 Re:

I hate copy pasting... but here it goes... **sigh**

Libel Against Luther

Our article “How the Reformation Changed the World” received many responses from around the world, mostly very positive. However, there were also numerous friends who responded in surprise that we could have so positively quoted from Martin Luther, because from what they had heard, he was anti-Semitic and responsible for terrible atrocities against God’s people, the Jews.


I was even directed towards websites that are dedicated to depicting Luther as an anti-Semite who laid the foundations for the holocaust!


The accusation that Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, responsible for massacres, reveals an ignorance of history. Luther was pro-Christ and he was zealous in evangelism. For decades he lovingly and patiently reached out to the Jewish people in his area with the Gospel. In 1523, Luther accused Catholics of being unfair to Jews in treating them “as if they were dogs”. Luther was outraged and declared that such mistreatment made it even more difficult for Jews to convert to Christ.


Luther wrote: “I would request and advise that one deal gently with the Jews … if we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them, not by Papal Law, but by the Law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, hear our Christian teaching and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either”.


Fifteen years later, however, the persistent rejection of Christ and repeated blasphemies of those Jewish people in his community, provoked Luther to write: “On the Jews and their Lies”. In this pamphlet, Luther wrote against the “madness and blindness that blasphemes Christ” in the Rabbinic teachings. Luther declared that he could not “have any fellowship or patience with obstinate blasphemers and those who defame our dear Saviour.” These blasphemies included describing our Lord Jesus Christ as “the bastard Son” of “that whore, Mary”, and even worse. Blasphemy was a civil crime. Luther taught that to tolerate such blasphemy was to share in the guilt for it. Therefore, he proposed measures of “sharp mercy” which included confiscating all Jewish literature which was blasphemous and prohibiting Rabbis to teach such blasphemy.


However, to quote these reactions of Luther without explaining their local context of opposing the repeated blasphemies of Jewish individuals in his community, and then to project guilt for the continent-wide, anti-Christian holocaust of World War II upon the great 16th century Reformer is ludicrous. How can any Christian Reformer of the 16th century be blamed for the evils perpetrated by those humanists (who clearly rejected his teachings) 400 years after his death!


Hitler was a disciple of the atheist Nietzsche (the philosopher who declared: “God is dead!”) – not Luther. Luther was not an anti-Semite. His arguments against Jewish individuals were theological, not biological or cultural. He was speaking out against blasphemy and heresy, not opposing an entire race or nation of people.


Nevertheless, the harsh and extreme terminology used by Luther in his writings leave many of his supporters embarrassed and confused as to how a man, who so wondrously preached the grace of God, could have been so ungracious in his writings on the Jews.


By his own admission, Martin Luther was often harsh in opposing those who rejected Christ. “I cannot deny that I am more vehement than I should be …” he wrote. “But, they assail … God’s Word so atrociously and criminally that … these monsters are carrying me beyond the bounds of moderation.”


Luther once asked: “What do you think of Christ? Was He abusive when He called the Jews an adulterous and perverse generation, an offspring of vipers, hypocrites and children of the devil? … the truth … cannot be patient against its obstinate and intractable enemies” (Matthew 23).


Of course, the few pamphlets which Luther wrote against Jewish blasphemies, pale when compared to the many books produced by Luther against the Papacy. “We should take him – the Pope, the Cardinals and whatever riff-raff belongs to his idolatrous and papal holiness, and as blasphemers, tear out their tongues from the back and nail them on the gallows.”


On another occasion Luther wrote: “Why should we hesitate to use arms against these teachers of perdition, the cardinals, popes and the whole Roman Sodom, which corrupts the Church of God without end, and wash our hands in their blood?”


Luther admitted that he was, on occasion, bull-headed, coarse-tongued and intemperate.


His speech and actions were frequently intense. Luther wrote: “I was born to go to war and give battle to sects and devils, that is why my books are stormy and war-like.”


“What good does salt do if it does not bite? What good does the edge of the sword do if it does not cut?”


“How often must I cry out to you, coarse, stupid papists, to quote Scripture sometime? Scripture! Scripture! Scripture! Do you not hear you deaf goat and coarse …?”


On another occasion, when he was being publicly criticised, Luther declared: “I’m a tough Saxon, a peasant. I’ve grown a thick skin for this kind of … ”


The Reformer did sometimes, however, regret his outbursts. He explained to his wife, Katie: “Why, I sometimes rage about a piddling thing not worthy of mention. … Isn’t that a shameful thing?” Luther could repent and apologise with a wholeheartedness unlike any other. He could also laugh at himself, and was often cheerful and witty when everyone around him was desperate.


Unlike many of his time, Luther did not, however, hold Jews responsible for the death of Christ. As he wrote in a hymn: “We dare not blame … the band of Jews; ours is the shame.” Luther frequently emphasised that the blame for the death of Christ was upon each individual sinner, not least himself. Luther continued to the end of his life to maintain an eagerness and desperate longing that Jews might be won for Christ.


It is most disturbing that such a humble and God-fearing man, who, against all odds, gave to the church, and the world, the Bible, freely available in the common tongue; who introduced congregational singing; championed justification by God’s grace, received by faith, on the basis of the finished work of Christ; who stood for Sola Scriptura – that Scripture alone is our ultimate authority; and who was so wonderfully used of the Lord to bring about the greatest Biblical Reformation and birth of freedom that the world had ever known, could be the target of such vicious slander.


The Scriptures implore us: “Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it.” James 4:11


Even more, the Scriptures continually command us to respect our elders, especially our spiritual fathers. “Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly …” Leviticus 19:32


“Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father …” 1 Timothy 5:1

(Exodus 20:12; Leviticus 19: 3; Deuteronomy 27:16; Proverbs 30:17; Matthew 15:4).


“Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind.” 1 Peter 2:1

There is a disturbing tendency throughout the church, seen regularly in those homes where they have “roast pastor for Sunday lunch”, to continually set ourselves up as judges of those who are better than us.


Many have the gift of criticism and a ministry of discouragement.


As the Scripture so plainly shows us, slander of every kind is inseparable from malice, deceit, hypocrisy and envy. The middle letter of pride is “I”, the middle letter of lie is “I”, the middle letter of sin is “I”, so too the middle letter of Lucifer is “I”. Self-centered pride is often at the root of our desire to slander great men and women of the past, and to drag down others whom God has raised up.


Do those who so confidently condemn Martin Luther really believe, in the light of eternity, in the sight of God, that they have served God’s people and God’s cause and Kingdom with even 1% as much dedication and effectiveness as Martin Luther? If they do, it betrays an ignorance of history and a blindness to their own weaknesses.


It is most encouraging that while Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, he prayed: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34



Dr. Peter Hammond


 2011/8/8 14:43









 Re:

Another lesson in history....

WERE THE ANABAPTISTS PERSECUTED FOR THEIR FAITH?

It is fairly common to hear the claims that the Reformers persecuted the Anabaptists just because they "were not willing to baptise babies." One correspondent wrote that rather than celebrate the Reformation "would it not be preferable to study the Scriptures…"

Of course, our highest priority is to "study the Scriptures daily to see if these things be true". In fact that is the heritage of the Reformation. The Reformation gave us back the Bible freely available, translated into our own languages, and the Reformers championed "Scripture alone is our final authority". The Reformation succeeded in bringing about greater freedoms than had ever been experienced before in human history.

Those who accuse the Reformers of persecuting the Anabaptists are being unfair and selective in not reporting the whole context. The Anabaptists were not so much opposed and convicted for not being willing to baptise babies, but because the Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries.

While the Anabaptists claimed to be the only true Christians, they denied many of the key elements of the Faith. They rejected Biblical Law, Christian ministry, worship and sacraments, and the Anabaptists proclaimed socialism, egalitarianism and revolution. They claimed "it is impossible to be Christian and wealthy at the same time"; "all authorities, secular and clerical, must be deprived of their offices once and for all or be killed by the sword…"

Igor Shafarevich in his book The Socialist Phenomenon, documents the teachings and activities of two important Anabaptist leaders, Thomas Muntzer and John of Leyden. Muntzer, an itinerant preacher and organiser of rebellions, established his revolutionary base in Muhlhausen from where he issued proclamations damning landowners, magistrates, and the Reformers. "I would like to smell your frying carcass" he wrote to Martin Luther.

In 1525, Muntzer was successful in rousing up many of the peasants of central Germany in the bloody, so called Peasants Revolt, which it should be noted attracted several nobles to his side. "Let your swords be ever-warm with blood!" Muntzer exhorted his faithful followers. Muntzer's army of Anabaptists struck terror throughout the countryside, robbing, burning and destroying the property of the faithful, killing many thousands.

Frederick Engels praised Muntzer's "robust vandalism" and explained "by the Kingdom of God Muntzer meant a society without class differences, private property and the state authority…. All the existing authorities…were to be overthrown, all work and property shared in common and complete equality introduced."

Engels praised Muntzer's doctrines in this way: "Under the cloak of Christianity he preached a kind of pantheism, which curiously resembled modern speculative contemplation and at times even approached atheism. He repudiated the Bible both as the only and as the infallible revelation. The real and living revelation, he said, was reason, a revelation which existed and always exists amongst all people at all times. To hold up the Bible against reason, he maintained, was to kill the spirit with the letter, …faith is nothing but reason come alive in man, and pagans could therefore also have faith…just as there is no heaven in the beyond, there is no hell and no damnation. Similarly, there is no devil…Christ was a man, as we are, a prophet and a teacher..."

In 1534, Anabaptist leader Jan Matthijs siezed the town of Munster. "Armed Anabaptists broke into houses and drove out everyone who was unwilling to accept second baptism. Winter was drawing to a close; it was a stormy day and wet snow was falling. An eyewitness account describes crowds of expelled citizens walking through the knee-deep snow. They had not been allowed even to take warm clothing with them. Women carrying children in their arms, old men leaning on staffs. At the city gate they were robbed once more." (The Socialist Phenomenon - Shafarevich)

Jan Matthijs and Johan Bokelson then instituted a reign of terror in Munster, ordering the socialisation of all property, and ordaining apostles of revolution to preach throughout Europe. The communist paradise of Munster attracted thousands of Anabaptists from throughout Germany and Holland. Matthijs was killed in one of the early battles with surrounding cities. Johan Bokelson took command and established a dictatorship in Munster. He then issued the order for holding everything in common, including wives.

As Frederick Engels observed: "It is a curious fact that in every large revolutionary movement the question of free-love comes to the foreground". No woman was allowed to be exempt - there was a law against being unmarried, which meant that every girl was forced to be passed around amongst the men. Every woman in Munster became fair game for the lusts of these Anabaptist men. Rapes, suicides, severe punishments and mass executions took place almost every day. On one notable occasion, Bokelson himself beheaded a virtuous woman who had refused his sexual advances. As he ceremoniously chopped her head off in the public square, a choir of his wives sang "Glory to God in the Highest"! (Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators by David Chilton).

This reign of terror continued for a year and a half until the city was freed by Protestant forces who put Bokelson and his lieutenants to death for their crimes - crimes committed in the name of love, equality and spirituality.

I have left out most of the sordid and horrifying details of the 1525 Peasants Revolt and the 1534 Anabaptist "Kingdom of God" established in Munster. But these few examples should be sufficient to explain why Anabaptists were opposed. It was not that they were being persecuted for taking the Scriptures seriously, but because they were violent revolutionaries subverting the entire social order and guilty of the deaths of many thousands of innocent people.

Those who would claim that the Anabaptists have changed dramatically since that time, should recognise that it is for that very reason therefore unfair to portray the Reformers as supporting the persecution of poor innocent Anabaptists, as that is plainly not the case. Yes, the Anabaptists have changed since. So we should not continue to propagate the false accusation that Reformers were persecuting pacifist Anabaptists who were seeking to mind their own business. The Anabaptists that were opposed by the Reformers in the 1520's and 1530's were violent revolutionaries guilty of abominable atrocities and abuses.

For further reading, I would encourage you to read - When All Men Speak Well of You and Why Is There So Much Hostility Against the Bible and Christianity? and obtain these outstanding books: What If Jesus Had Never Been Born by Dr. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe, Under the Influence - How Christianity Transformed Civilisation by Alvin Schmidt, and The Great Christian Revolution by Otto Scott. We all owe a tremendous debt to the Reformation in so many different ways. The Reformation was the greatest movement for faith and freedom that the world has ever seen.

Dr. Peter Hammond
Frontline Fellowship

 2011/8/8 14:56





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