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mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

One who sounds the trumpet should have exhausted their means of warning the person they wish to toot the horn about. It would be similar of me hearing something about you and then going publically and calling you a terrible person and apostate. Wouldn't it make sense to first go to you and say hey what's the deal with this? Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.

Mr.Washer isn't my example, but Christ is, and I am sure Paul Washer bases his rebuke on fact and information rather speculation. This is the critism I have problems with, a rebuke must come from Truth, truth of the Word and truth of the situation.

I am uncertain its exactly wise to cast judgment on Joel O or Rob Bell and say they aren't Christians to them they wholeheartedly believe they are. God is their judge in the end not you or I.


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/7 22:26Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Quote:
Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.


I completely agree. I think it's a shame when we don't do research.

I figured that Paul Washer wasn't your example. It just seems that so often on this forum we refuse to take a word of, I don't know, warning or something from someone on here and we will often take one from a preacher we've listened to. I too hope that Mr. Washer bases his rebuke on fact, but are we willing to check that? Probably not, because we're too lazy. I just find it ironic that we so often will say "this many preachers on SI say this guy's bad so he must be!" But if a forum member says it we cry criticism. (I am not saying you are doing this. But it IS something I have observed at times.)

So where does 2 Timothy 3:2-9 and Romans 16:17-18 fit in? Are we supposed to go through Matthew 18 (confront them one on one, then bring in 2 witness, then take it to the church) first and THEN mark and avoid them? I find this topic somewhat conflicting. Because it seems that one deals with someone who says they are a brother differently then how we deal with false teachers and false prophets. I would think this is because teachers have more influence. But I don't know. I am open to instruction on this.

Quote:
I am uncertain its exactly wise to cast judgment on Joel O or Rob Bell and say they aren't Christians to them they wholeheartedly believe they are. God is their judge in the end not you or I.


Just because someone wholeheartedly believes they are something, doesn't make it true. I may wholeheartedly believe that I am a banana, but that doesn't make it true. And lest we forget, Jesus blatantly told the false teachers of His day (who wholeheartedly believed they were children of God) that they were in fact going to hell. (Matthew 23:14 they shall receive greater damnation, 23:15 they were children of hell, 23:33 "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?") I also recall in another place how He called them the children of the devil.
So if Jesus is our example are we to follow that as well?
Or what about in 2 Timothy 3:2-9 that I quoted? Paul said that teachers who fell into that list were rejected in regard to the faith (verse 8). He just blatantly said they weren't Christians. Should we follow that?

However, it was probably presumptuous of me to say that. So I do truly and honestly ask for your forgiveness. I don't want to be critical, but I also don't want to be a namby pamby when it comes to false teachers. I suppose there is a balance there somewhere. It is just difficult to find. I pray we all can find that balance.


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Veronica

 2011/8/7 23:36Profile
carters
Member



Joined: 2011/5/24
Posts: 138
Australia

 Re:

mguldner,

I understand what you are saying. I have been delivered from possibly one of the ministries you speak of, so from my perspective I guess it depends on what is really behind some of these possible false teachers etc.

In my case I believe that the one that I was delivered from is operating under another spirit, a demonic one. If that is the case - then I do not think it is wise to go and confront them, or have anything to do with them. 1) Because I have a weakness for this influence and am susceptible to man's persuasion. 2) Because I know the Lord is wanting me to flee from anything to do with that ministry and its teachings, so confronting them wouldn't be fleeing. 3) The spirit is demonic and I know the word of the Lord for me is stay clear away from anything that is demonic and dangerous.

I could aliken it to - if you found yourself in a situation with a very flirty promiscuious man/woman that you found you had a great weakness for. YOu have a history of weakness with attraction to the flesh of this sort. What would you do? I would believe that the best answer would be to flee from this man/woman and not engage them, based on your weakness. (I am not saying that they should not have the gospel presented to them, but rather leave this up to someone who is specifically called to ministering to these people, not those that they have a weakness for them and that spirit).

This is the case with me and countless others who know this ministry is practising and operating in the demonic.

So what I am saying is that it is not a case of reconciliation. In my case I did not have a personal relationship with the ministry I was delivered from. They are global empire and it was through their books/writings/music/teachings etc available for download through their ministry that opened me up to that influence (praise the Lord they never laid hands on me).

Most of the cases are not a disgreement with doctrine or a relationship break down BUT rather exposing us to demonic influences.

I say run, and flee and pray for them on your accord to the Lord.

EDIT - I gather that you are talking about ministries that most likely aren't the ones that I have been delivered from. But just be careful because if you blanket that no-one should critise any teachers then people may not test the really dangerous and demonic ones based on your argument.

Through Him only,
Sherid


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Mrs Carter

 2011/8/8 0:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
One who sounds the trumpet should have exhausted their means of warning the person they wish to toot the horn about. It would be similar of me hearing something about you and then going publically and calling you a terrible person and apostate. Wouldn't it make sense to first go to you and say hey what's the deal with this? Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.



Yes and no. When someone makes a public declaration then they should be challenged publicly. There is no record of Jesus ever going to the pharisees privately, with the exception of Nichodemus who actually came to Jesus, not the other way around. He rebuked them openly and publicly. The same for Paul.

Matthew 18 applies to Christians and how they relate to other Christians in the local assembly. It is not about how little unknown me addresses Joe-Famous-Preacher about his error. I can not have an audience with Joel Osteen. He never sees the mail that comes into his ministry... it is all opened by an outside firm the church has hired. Most of it is thrown out, with the exception of any checks that come in... those are deposited.

If I show up at his office I will quickly be escorted out by security.

MANY leading ministers in America have confronted him over his errors. He HAS been warned. Who has NOT been warned are most Christians sitting in the pew... thus the need to make his error and heresy widely and publicly known.

If we are silent and say nothing to warn others then we are just as guilty as Joel Osteen himself.

Krispy

 2011/8/8 9:06









 Re:

Having said that... if someone can not point out erroneous teachings without getting some sort of prideful kick out of it then no, they should not participate in this type of thing. We should always check our motives and make sure we are being spurred on by the Holy Spirit or by fleshly pride and self righteousness.

Krispy

 2011/8/8 9:16









 Re:

I believe that there has been a saturation in society, especially among young people, of never challenging anyone on anything. My niece spent two years with us as she went to college and so we had young people coming and going all the time in our house. I had many conversations with these young people, and the one thing that they had in common was that they thought it was shocking if anyone disagreed with anothers opinion and had the audacity to say they were wrong.

I believe that this is a very worldly view and is part of the phyche for the coming one world church. Another good example I believe, is feminism, and how it so saturated society that it influenced many Christian woman.

Think about it, there is coming a time, and I believe sooner rather than later, when Christains will be called to make bold stands that will actually cost them something. This will certainly be a confrontation, a confrontation between darkness and light, and make no mistake, the darkness will release all of its fury when confronted. If you have no stomoch for confrontation now, its hard to see how one will stand when true persecution comes.............brother Frank

 2011/8/8 10:39









 The Truth will always divide the darkness like a sword.

There is a narrow gate that only the holy may enter into. It is important that that be made clear in your life, and with out Godly discernment, you may find yourself walking in the midst of the wide one, just because many others are mobbing it up around you.

"This will certainly be a confrontation, a confrontation between darkness and light, and make no mistake, the darkness will release all of its fury when confronted. If you have no stomach for confrontation now, its hard to see how one will stand when true persecution comes"......brother Frank....[ amen. ]

Consider the reformation, when the RCC lit up the night skies with our brothers and sisters, burning them alive. These people knew what they believed, it wasn't popular or blessing filled, and they warned many.

Much of what we may think is the gospel is not, but an aberration....and all it takes is a crack in the door for the Devil to storm in like a flood. This is what is happening in much of so-called Christianity today...and those who point that out aren't popular.

Consider all of the prophets through John, Jesus, and all of the Apostles. They weren't called to be popular. They were murdered. Jesus said in Matthew 10:..."You shall be hated by All!."

Base you convictions upon the Word of God, united with that still small voice that bears witness to the Word inside, and never give it up. This is at the heart of faith.


 2011/8/8 11:03
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: Don't critize me.

If our defense of truth is not accompanied by MANY genuine tears flowing from a Christ controlled heart, it may be a good indication that our motivation is the kind that will be condemned by God on the day when our hearts are exposed before all.


Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Luc 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luc 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Charity …. Hopeth all things … I Cor. 13:7.


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Michael Strickland

 2011/8/8 11:19Profile









 Re:

With so much of the teachings and doctrine of some of these men documented in their own books and sermons, how can anyone suggest we NOT speak out? There is no question what these people teach... no mis-quotes... whole sermons are readily available around the world on YouTube (not piece taken out of context as someone suggested).

If someone does not wish to speak up and defend the Truth (as we are all commanded to do), then dont get in the way of those who will.

Krispy

 2011/8/8 11:57
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Its likely I am wrong eh? And I understand and see what you wiser saints are saying in light of the topic. I'm young in age and in the Lord and lack discernment and experience. I have no problem with disagreeing with people I do that daily. But its always my prayer that I remain in a spirit of humility rather a spirit of critism and this is really what I am trying to address.

Thank you for sharing the scriptures they were enlightening to the topic at hand. I appreciate your wisdom on the matter. :)


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/8 12:05Profile





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