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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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 Re:

Twayneb,

You wrote: "Technically an unbeliever cannot be in the church as the church is comprised of all born again believers. If an unbeliever is actively fellowshipping in a local body and this continues for a long time I might question if that local body is functioning correctly and has the right priorities. I would like to think that the intimate fellowship that scripture describes in the local body would preclude an unbeliever being able to remain in close fellowship in the body for long without being challenged. I am talking only about the local fellowship and not about the obvious relationships with the world that we need to have in which we are in process of reaching them for Christ."

You are definitely right. I would question that too. We see though in Revelation 2-3 that even of the churches whom Christ recognized as being genuinely of him, 5 out of 7 were not functioning correctly with the right priorities. It is a sad reality that unbelievers do attach to churches where some people who are genuinely born again also fellowship. And when those unbelievers hear things like "the law is not for us now", without the distinguishment made between those who are submiited to Christ and led by the Spirit and have the true rightousness of the law and those who aren't (whom 1 Timothy 1:8-11 applies to), they are further hardened in their sin because they think they are in Christ, as is evident by the new testament and experience many think they're in Christ when they're really not. I really believe that distinguishment does need to be made virtually all the time when this subject is talked about, as the very first warning (or one of the first) Jesus gave in the New testament is "think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets." (Matthew 5:17-20) And even on these discussion forums, it can't be assumed that all who read them have truly repented toward God of their lawlessness and are walking by Christ's power in the Holy Spirit.

You wrote: "It is true that to a certain extent the law can restrain sin, although that depends on how much these people regard any form of moral absolute which is becoming more rare all the time. The real restraining work of the law was in the time between its inception and the coming of Jesus the Messiah. Believers no longer need a law to restrain sin because we have the inner witness and promptings of the Holy Spirit and are motivated by love and relationship rather than by punishment."

Again, I believe your statement is basically correct. There's nothing here I can say I disagree with. I just point out that true Christians are warned repeatedly against giving themselves back over to serving sin and the absolutes of the moral law are given to even true believers in the New Testament to show the need to be watchful and abide in Christ, as it realy is possible for even true Christians to turn away from Christ and live after the flesh as transgressors of God's law. "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce MY SERVANTS to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." (Revelation 2:20) Consider also the warnings specifically to true Christians to flee from fornication in 1 Corinthians 6 and to flee from idolatry in 1 Corinthians 10. There is the need to yield to Christ constantly and walk in the Spirit in order toto not walk after the flesh (which I'm pretty sure you agree with). Paul gives the deeds of the flesh, which are in some way transgressions of the moral law, as evidence one is not in the Spirit.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:16-21)

I aree with your last paragraph. I'll be away from the internet possibly for a while in case anything I wrote gets brought up again. Hopefully we each see where we're coming from now. Be blessed.






 2011/8/9 17:43
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
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 Re:

by growingone on 2011/8/6 22:27:32

"The fact remains that the moral law is still in place for those who are not led by the Spirit (1 Timothy 1:8-11)."

Yes.Those who are not led by the Holy Spirit are all non-Christians. All Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Whom works in us daily, transforming our nature that we may be pleasing and fruitful in God Eyes.

by growingone on 2011/8/6 22:27:32

"If the moral law were to not be regarded, then a professing Christian who was committing adultery/looking at pornography/lying/stealing, etc (any obvious transgression of the moral law) could rightfully be in fellowship with a true Christian church without any rebuke. After all, the law of God is not to be regarded (sarcasm). The New Testament says otherwise:

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)"

Which 1 COR 5:11-13 in modern English reads:

1 Co 5:11-13
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler — not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges.REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
NASU

Paul is actually disregarding the Mosaic Law. The Fornication (gr. Pornei) means harlotry (including adultery and incest). The Mosaic Law required the death penalty for these two sins.

Paul goes on to describe incest between mother and son, that the son should be banished and handed over to Satan, so that his soul may eventually be saved. Even a sin as awful as this God can work in a Christian over time and still save him. Scripture clearly indicates that this fornicator will be saved by the workings of the Holy Spirit in him.

Please note that pornei/fornication, including incest, was not unlawful prior to the Mosaic Law. It was normal back then to marry and have sex with close relatives, including brothers and sisters.

BTW, LYING IS NOT NECESSARILY A SIN. The Lie that is a sin is bearing false witness against a person in a Court of Law that leads to unjust punishment and suffering, or a slanderous lie in the court of public opinion. Lying to save someones an innocent persons life is a good thing. The Jewish Midrash has many examples of when lying is permissible under the Mosaic Law.

AND ABOVE ALL, as a Christian, I walk in Faith, and not by the works required under the Mosaic Law. That is, I have God in me, via the indwelling Holy Spirit, my Helper, God in me, cleansing me of all unrighteousness, God's work in me. God who began in me a good work in me will complete until the day of Jesus my Savior.

As Paul writes: Phillipians 1:3 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

I have very high confidence and faith that these words are true.










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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/10 10:36Profile
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 Re:

by Christinyou on 2011/8/6 14:30:37

"If Christ is born again in us, He cannot sin, that is the only sinless perfection we have. How are we presented perfect to God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", Col 1:27-28. The Holy Spirit is also perfect and as we walk in Him in our soul and mind we are perfect also and still our minds are being renewed to the perfect Mind of Christ.
Perfect in Spirit, which is Christ, perfect in soul when walking in the Spirit, will be perfect in the flesh in the resurrection. Still capable of sinning in the flesh, with the Advocate whom we must run to in confessing."

Hello Phillip. I agree with you with the possible exception being perfect in the flesh in the resurrection.

Because of:

1 Co 15:50-57

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 " O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASU


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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/10 10:54Profile
ArtB
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 Re: Reply to post by Oracio on 2011/8/8 15:11:50. P. 7

Oracio, in reply to me stated: "The moral Law is the 10 Commandments, the 4th one being fulfilled through resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross. All the other 9 are carried over into the New Testament."

Sorry Oracio, I do not see this being true at all. First of all, it is not called the Mosaic Laws. It is called the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. Contract), a contract that the people of the Exodus wanted with God and they willingly signed on to this Contract with God. It bears Moses name because he read the entire Contract between them and God which listed 613 Laws that God required them to keep, it was never just ten commandments.

In addition to the 613 commandments, it includes the blessings and curses for keeping or not keeping all the Laws written therein. The Contract was between the people of the Exodus and God, and there were stiff penalties to the peoples for failure to keep the contract, and they would receive great blessings if they kept all the Laws. And they signed on to this Mosaic Covenant via Moses reading to them the entire Contract and then by accepting the Sprinkling of Blood upon them by Moses while they shouted in unison "This we will do." This is the only bilateral covenant God ever made with the peoples. This bilateral Covenant that God made with the Peoples was repeated with their offspring just prior to entering the Promised Land.

Oracio, the Mosaic Covenant, the only bilateral contract God made with the peoples, was annihilated. See Zec 11: 7 - 14 predicting the Mosaic Covenant being annihilated by God in its' entirety. Note also that Zec 11: 1-6 describes the burning of Herod's Temple in 70 AD.

I believe it was annihilated upon the death of Jesus death on the cross. At that moment, it was REPLACED by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Zec 11:7-14

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. 8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I SAID TO THEM, "IF IT GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, NEVER MIND!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT MAGNIFICENT PRICE AS WHAT I WAS VALUED BY THEM." So I took the THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AND THREW THEM TO THE POTTER IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD. 14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. NASU


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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/10 11:25Profile
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 Re:

Quote: Hello Phillip. I agree with you with the possible exception being perfect in the flesh in the resurrection.

Perfect in Spirit, which is Christ, perfect in soul when walking in the Spirit, will be perfect in the flesh in the resurrection. (But Now,) Still capable of sinning in the flesh, with the Advocate whom we must run to in confessing."

What is the possible exception? The life of the flesh is in the blood. We will not have blood in the resurrection, only flesh and bone as Jesus has now, we will be like Him.

I did not mean we would still be capable of sinning in the resurrection, but while we are still here on this earth.

Need clarification if this is what you were being in exception to. If not please help me understand what the exception is.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/8/10 17:20Profile
ArtB
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 Re:

by Christinyou on 2011/8/10 14:20:20 wrote:

"Need clarification if this is what you were being in exception to. If not please help me understand what the exception is."

Sorry, In re-reading what you wrote, perhaps I misread your meaning. My point was a minor point, that 'Flesh and Blood can not inherit Heaven' based upon 1 Corinthians 15:50.

The exception I meant is that I'm not sure we will have physical bodies of flesh in Heaven based upon 1 Co 15:50: Paul wrote: "Now I say this, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

And: Mt 22:30-31
Jesus speaking: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. NASU


Or perhaps we will have a closet of fleshly bodies to try on as Angels do when they come to earth. But this idea is pure speculation on my part. though we do know angels have appeared on Earth in human bodies.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/10 22:18Profile
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 Re: I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

Find it amazing that people who claim to be followers of God can say that His law should be trashed! May the Lord enlighten us so that we can understand that his Law is not the problem...WE ARE! We can keep his law only by abiding in CHRIST but to say that THE LAW OF GOD CAN BE DISREGARDED is not sound! How then would I know what is right and wrong in this "relative" christian society? The 10 commandments of God written with his own finger will never pass away! Neither in this world or the world to come!

 2011/8/11 20:11Profile
ArtB
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 Re:

My Reply to kwamenat.

I wish you the best in your efforts to Keep the whole Mosaic law. Remember, the Law has 613 commandments, and these Mosaic Laws have punishments associated with them and need to be carried out. Since you believe the Mosaic Laws apply to Christians:

If someone dies on your property, You are required to purchase a calf, and cut its' throat over the spot where the person died in order to redeem his blood.

If you and another adult witness a couple in adultery, and found guilty, you are required to stone them to death, and after they die, to hang them on a tree, for all to see.

If you ever hire people to perform work for you, you must pay them on the same day they performed the work. Failure to do so is a violation of the Mosaic Laws.

If you see a person pursuing another man to kill him. you must prevent the pursuer from doing so even if it means you must kill the pursuer.

And so on.

As for me, I am under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

I need not perform any of these works (including the punishments), because Jesus shed His atoning blood on the cross that is the everlasting covering for all my sins. By His blood alone I am justified before God.

Gal 1:6-12

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

11. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:1-14

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so AbrahamBELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NASU

So if salvation is through faith and all efforts by man of Salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law is doomed, then why did God give the Mosaic Law:

Gal 3:15-29

Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith that was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
NASU

Gal 5

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
NASU

To follow Naild’s Heresy of putting oneself under the Old Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, will subject you to the yoke of slavery to the LAW. You nullify the grace and work of Jesus Christ. In the New Covenant with Jesus, we live by the Spirit, we walk by faith in God, and live under the Laws of Christ and not under the Mosaic Law. As Paul points out in Hebrews chapter 7, Jesus is not a Priest under the order of Levi, but has an eternal priesthood under the order of Melchizedek, and that where there is a change in priesthood, there is a change in law. Paul states that the “Old Mosaic Covenant” is replaced by the far superior “New Covenant” we Have in Jesus, as is predicted by the Hebrew (old) Testament.

Heb 7:11-8:13

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVERACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORNAND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8

8:1 A Better Ministry

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 [A New Covenant]

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANTWITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
NASU

And Zechariah, whom I quoted in my prior post above. He revealed the exact time when God annihilated the Mosaic covenant. It was at Jesus's death. Jesus kept THE LAW for us who believes Him and His atoning sacrifice, per the Word of God.

Remember, the Book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus is our High Priest, but He is not a Priest according to Moses, Jesus is a Priest according to a far superior and everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. And that where there is a Change of Priesthood there is a Change of Law. The Chapter 7 of Hebrews states that the Mosaic Laws was useless and worthless in that it could not save anyone.

I am saved and I truly believe that God will faithfully transform my nature over time that I may do the good I was created to do via the workings of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it will be for me to do so, naturally. And this is a gift from Him to me. This is my Faith, that I hear His word and I believe His word. I am not under the Mosaic Laws, because I am now under the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/11 22:56Profile
kwamenat
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Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

This is what the Lord said after He gave them the 10 commandments

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

AND HE ADDED NO MORE!!!!!

for those of you who have time please read this explanation below by Richard Anthony to get a better understanding of why the 10 commandments will never pass away



The Ten Commandments are not part of the Law of Moses by Richard Anthony

Please, allow me to show you how the scripture itself proves that the "Ten Commandments" and the "law of Moses" are two completely separate laws. I will discuss seven points.

Simply stated, The "Law of Moses" has been known mainly as the "commandments of Moses" throughout the scripture, but can also be known as the commandments of God. On the other hand, the Ten Commandments are known only as the direct commandments of God, and never ever as the "commandments of Moses." And if they are not known as the commandments of Moses in the scripture, what right have we to call it such?


One

The major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were recorded:

Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."

No one can confuse the Ten Commandments writing with the way the Mosaic law was produced:

Deuteronomy 31:9, "And Moses wrote this law."


Two

Another major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were given to God's People.

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

It's important to notice that after God wrote the Ten Commandments, he "added no more" to this Law, yet God gave Moses statutes, precepts, judgments, and ordinances afterwards. If the Mosaic law was part of the Ten Commandments, there would be a contradiction here, because God did add more to this law! But there was no contradiction, because God considered the Ten Commandments to be a separate Law. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God himself to the people, so that God would instruct them. There was no mediator involved! Moses was not the mediator of the Ten Commandments. But he was the mediator of the sacrificial laws:

Exodus 33:9, "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses."

2 Chronicles 34:14, "...Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses."

Unlike the Ten Commandments, in which God talked directly to the people, the sacrificial and ceremonial laws were spoken to Moses only. Moses was the mediator of these temporary laws, but not the Ten Commandments.


Three

God made known this distinction to Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb:

Deuteronomy 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it."

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments which "he commanded you", from the statutes which "he commanded me" to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments were designated as separate and distinct "law".

[See also Exodus 19:7; 39:1,5,7,21,26,29,31,32,42,43; 40:19,21,23,25,27,29,32 and Leviticus 7:38; 8:9,13,17,21,29: 9:10; 27:34]


Four

2 Kings 21:8, "Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them."

Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a "law". Two different laws are being described now. God speaks of the law "I commanded" (The Ten Commandments) and also of the law "Moses commanded" (the law of Moses).

[See also Leviticus 9:5 and Deuteronomy 33:4 for the commandments of Moses. Deuteronomy 6:2; 8:11; 11:22,27,28; 13:18; 15:5; 19:9; 27:10; 28:1,13,15 and Joshua 22:5 for two different laws. And Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 for the commandments of God]


Five

Daniel was inspired to make the same careful distinction:

Daniel 9:11, "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

Once more we see "thy law" (God's law, the Ten Commandments) and "the law of Moses" (the commandments of Moses), and are different in content. There are no curses recorded in the Ten Commandments that God wrote. Only the book of Moses has curses (Deuteronomy.29:20,21,27, 2 Chron.34:24).

[See also Exodus 20:6 for a passage on how the Ten Commandments were considered God's commandments, and not Moses' commandments]


Six

The following verses show that the "Ten Commandments" and the "law of Moses" are 2 separate laws, because they were separated physically:

Deuteronomy 31:24-26, "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

The book of statutes and judgments which Moses wrote in a book was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark. In contrast, the Law written by God on tables of stone was placed inside the ark of the covenant.

Exodus 25:16, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."

The spiritual lesson of this physical separation is that we are to spiritually separate the Ten Commandments from the laws of Moses.


Seven

And, finally, the most important point. Did you know God himself wrote the Ten Commandments a second time? Moses broke the first Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34:1, "Hew thee two tablets of stone like unto first; and I will write upon the tablets the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break."

Deuteronomy 10:1 "...Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount; and make thee an ark of wood."

Now, first of all, if the Ten Commandments were part of the Law of Moses, there would be no need for God to write the Ten Commandments a second time after Moses broke the original Ten Commandments. Why? Because the Ten Commandments would already exist inside, and be included in, and be a part of, the book of Moses. The book of Moses still existed at that time, and was still being observed. But God decided to write the ten commandments a second time, which would have been meaningless if it was considered a part of the law of Moses, or the book of Moses. So obviously, God considered His Law (His Ten Commandments), to be separate from the Law of Moses (the commandments of Moses). This shows that the two laws are to be considered separate and distinct laws from each other.


An Illustration

You and I can enter into a Covenant with each other. Our covenant can be an agreement for you to do one thing and I another. Our covenant can also be based upon the Ten Commandments. We will agree to not steal, murder, or commit adultery. Now, does this mean the Ten Commandments did not exist before we entered into our covenant with each other? No, it does not. Here's another question. When our covenant passes away because we fulfilled our agreement with each other, does that mean the Ten Commandments, which this covenant was based upon, are also passed away? No, it does not.

This illustrates how I see the Ten Commandments. Before Moses confirmed the covenant, it was a sin to steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. These laws existed before the covenant at Sinai happened. And after this covenant waxed old, and was replaced with a new covenant, the laws that say do not steal, murder, and commit adultery did not pass away with the old covenant. God still expects us to obey those laws, which reflect His Will.


Conclusion

To summarize, we can note several distinctions in the two laws. They had different authors, were originally written on different materials, were spoken by different law-givers, were placed in different locations in the ark, and they had totally different content. This shows, by example, how they are to be considered and treated as separate laws. In addition, the Ten Commandments were spoken from God's mouth (Exodus 19:19; 20:1, Deuteronomy.4:10,12; 5:22-26; 18:16, Nehemiah 9:13), and God said he would not "alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalm 89:34). The Ten Commandments went out of God's lips, so the Ten Commandments could not have been altered!

To give you a hypothetical situation, if the Ten Commandments were a part of the book of Moses, then whatever happens to the book of Moses must also, by definition, happen to the Ten Commandments. Don't you agree?

Well, if the Ark caught on fire, and the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), the law of Moses, suddenly burned to a crisp, would the Ten Commandments be burned up as well? No! But will the law of ordinances be burned up? Yes! The priesthood laws? Yes! The sacrificing laws? Yes! The Ten Commandments on Stone? No! Why? Because they were recorded on different materials. The tables of stone symbolize the imperishable nature of the Ten Commandments!

Now, here's a real example that will prove that they are two separate laws. Does God still expect us to sacrifice lamps, heifers, and other animals today, to atone for our sins? No, these sacrificial laws were changed. Does God still expect us to not steal, murder, lie, and commit adultery? Yes! Therefore, this simple fact that God does not expect us to obey the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, but does expect us to keep the laws of the Ten Commandments, prove that they are not part of the same law!

Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed Christ Jesus. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16,19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ, and this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." (Psalm 111:8).

-Richard Anthony

 2011/8/12 13:50Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This is what the Lord said after He gave them the 10 commandments

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

AND HE ADDED NO MORE!!!!!

for those of you who have time please read this explanation below by Richard Anthony to get a better understanding of why the 10 commandments will never pass away



kwamenat: I am not wanting to debate or argue with you about this issue but I would be interested in how you see these verses.

2Co 3:1-9 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? (2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: (3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. (4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: (5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; (6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: (8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

It seems to me that this is referring to the ten commandments as they were the only ones that were graven in stone and the only portion of the law given in which Moses face shone with glory. Then in verse 13 Paul makes a pretty emphatic statement. He says this.

2Co 3:12-14 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: (13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Notice that he speaks of the ten commandments as having been abolished.

Now I would agree that we are not saying that the law including the ten commandments are bad or evil or that they are not good and from a Holy God and therefore holy themselves. I also am not saying that we should now kill because we are not under the law. Paul dealt with this in Romans 6 very clearly.

But I would wonder what your take is on these verses.


_________________
Travis

 2011/8/12 18:14Profile





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