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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Twayneb, I read your post and I agree with your view.

I believe the model for the Jews coming to Jesus in the near future is found in the OT when Joseph, the favored son, shared his dream with his brothers of them bowing down to him. They brothers were already jealous of Joseph, being favored by his father, and his special coat, and now they wanted to kill him.

The opportunity arrived, and they lowered Joseph into a pit, only to be raised from the pit to be sold to the gentile merchants. To the Jewish people, both ancient and today, the lowering of Joseph into the pit represents death, the raising of Joseph from the pit is resurrection.

Joseph went on to become the leader of the gentiles. Then Joseph had the dream of the coming great SEVEN YEAR FAMINE. What follows is that Joseph saves the people of the world, the gentiles first, then last he saves his own family, the Sons of Jacob, and their families, and their father Jacob too. All Israel is saved last. But note that Joseph brothers, discovering their brother LIVES, they were afraid of Joseph, that he might seek revenge for what they did to Him. But Joseph was truly forgiving and loved His brothers.

And I believe that this foreshadows how it will be when the Jews learn that Jesus is indeed the Messiah they have been waiting for all these centuries. But in short time they will see it is all good, and rejoice.

My speculation, of course.

ArtB


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/26 13:55Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father which is in heaven ? How can we know HIS will, where did He give us His will so we cannot possibly miss it? What are His commandments? Jesus answered:

Luke 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:

Matthew 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace.

Let's hear what some of the "older brothers" have to say to that:



Holiness by J. C. Ryle

Genuine sanctification will show itself in habitual respect to God’s law and habitual effort to live in obedience to it as the rule of life. There is no greater mistake than to suppose that a Christian has nothing to do with the law and the Ten Commandments because he cannot be justified by keeping them. The same Holy Spirit who convinces the believer of sin by the law and leads him to Christ for justification will always lead him to a spiritual use of the law, as a friendly guide, in the pursuit of sanctification. Our Lord Jesus Christ never made light of the Ten Commandments; on the contrary, in His first public discourse, the sermon on the mount, He expounded them and showed the searching nature of their requirements. St. Paul never made light of the law; on the contrary, he says, "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully." "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (1 Tim. 1:8; Rom. 7:22). He who pretends to be a saint, while he sneers at the Ten Commandments and thinks nothing of lying, hypocrisy, swindling, ill temper, slander, drunkenness and breach of the seventh commandment, is under a fearful delusion. He will find it hard to prove that he is a "saint" in the last day!



The Two Covenants and the Second Blessing
by Andrew Murray

"Through the whole of the Old Covenant there was always one trouble: man's heart was not right with God. In the New Covenant the evil is to be remedied. Its central promise is a heart delighting in God's law and capable of knowing and holding fellowship with Him. Let us mark the fourfold blessing spoken of."

1. " I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." Let us understand this well. In our inward parts, or in our heart, there are no separate chambers in which the law can be put, while the rest of the heart can be given up to other things; the heart is a unity. Nor are the inward parts and the heart like a house, which can be filled with things of an entirely different nature from what the walls are made of, without any living organic connection No; the inward parts, the heart, are the disposition, the love, the will, the life. Nothing can be put into the heart, and especially by God, without entering and taking possession of it, without securing its affection and controlling its whole being. And this is what God undertakes to do in the power of His divine life and operation, to breathe the very spirit of His law into and through the whole inward being. "I will put it into their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." At Sinai the tables of the Covenant, with the law written on them, were of stone, as a lasting substance. It is easy to know what that means. The stone was wholly set apart for this one thing-to carry and show this Divine writing. The writing and the stone were inseparably connected. And so the heart in which God gets His way, and writes His law in power, lives only and wholly to carry that writing, and is unchangeably identified with it. So alone can God realize His purpose in creation, and have His child of one mind and one spirit with Himself, delighting in doing His will. When the Old Covenant with the law graven on stone had done its work in the discovering and condemning of sin, the New Covenant would give in its stead the life of obedience and true holiness of heart. The whole of the Covenant blessing centers in this---the heart being put right and fitted to know God: "I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart " (Jer. xxiv. 7).

 2011/8/28 4:59Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:...So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace.



From Andrew Murray above

Quote:
When the Old Covenant with the law graven on stone had done its work in the discovering and condemning of sin, the New Covenant would give in its stead the life of obedience and true holiness of heart. The whole of the Covenant blessing centers in this---the heart being put right and fitted to know God: "I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart " (Jer. xxiv. 7).



a-servant: I do not believe that the standard of holiness that lies behind the commandments has been negated or invalidated. I don't think that anyone would make that claim. No one is saying that because we are not under the law we are free to sin. Romans 6 begins with just that question. Paul had made the case that we were not undedr the law anymore that he answered the obvious misunderstanding. What then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

But we must realize, as did Andrew Murray in the quote posted, that the law was only a veiled representation of God's holiness. All too often we relate to God in a legalistic way. I have done this all too often and sometimes struggle with it even now. We look to our own ability to "live holy" or to "keep the law" as a basis for the things that God does in our lives. This is the bondage that Paul speaks of in Gal. 5:1.

I am now totally and completely free from the law. I am free from the ten commandments and from the remainder of the law. The bondage I am free from is the bondage of condemnation. When I was in my flesh I was condemned by the law. The picture or representation of God's holy standard condemned me and slew me. I found out I was dead to sin when I was compared to a standard that I had no hopes of keeping in my flesh. Oh what bondage it is to try in my own power to keep God's laws. It is failure.

But being freed from the law is NOT license to sin nor is it implied that we would or should live lives that are not exemplified by holiness. We find in Titus that it is the grace of God that teaches us to live righteously and soberly, not the laws of God. When His holiness is written on my heart I will walk in holiness as I follow Him. You see, God's standard has never been, "do not commit murder." His standard is that we are full of the love of God through Christ in us and that we live out that love toward enemies as well as friends. He lives through us and by default we will not murder. The commandment was only a shadow of what the true nature of God really is.

So it is not that we now have new laws, expanded laws, or better laws. IT is that we are now filled with the Holy Spirit and the life that we live is the outflow of God in us which results in a truly holy life.



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Travis

 2011/8/28 18:26Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by a-servant on 2011/8/28 1:59:33

"Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father which is in heaven ? How can we know HIS will, where did He give us His will so we cannot possibly miss it? What are His commandments? Jesus answered:

Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace."

I already explained in my posts why your expressed view above is wrong.

You did not address any of my comments at all.

God's Truth does not depend on what some people think it is, His truth is written down and in context. As far as I'm concerned, you have not demonstrated by your post that we are still under the Mosaic Laws.

Here is some food for thought.

Did Jesus ever teach the New Covenant prior His Crucifixion?

Did Jesus fulfill the Mosaic Covenant by keeping all the Mosaic Laws until His death, and teaching His fellow Jews to do the same?

Did Jesus ever preach the Mosaic Covenant to the gentiles prior to His crucifixion?

When Jesus died on the cross, did God annihilate the Mosaic Covenant?

If you answer yes to any of these question, please provide scriptural evidence that proves your 'yes'.

In posting Matthew 5:27, you took it completely out of context. Jesus was teaching His fellow Jews to keep the Mosaic Covenant, as any good Rabbi would do.

And my final question:

When Jesus died on the cross, did God annihilate the Mosaic Covenant?






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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/31 22:09Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Ah, a Jesus with multiple solutions, the one that teaches specific items exclusively to Jews. Interesting, but I do not agree with such a segmentation.. The real Jesus has only 1 group of followers, not multiple or even just two.

But I do agree with his understanding:

The Great Gospel Deception by David Servant

https://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/false_grace_gospel

His definition of 'Christians are not "under the law of Moses," but they are definitely "under the law of Christ.' is biblical correct. Also his understanding of sin, holiness and obedience is better than a billboard that suggests that holiness and sin live in harmony together like yin and yang, you might want to read the whole thing.

 2011/9/1 7:17Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

David Servant is very misguided in his views of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He wrongly believes that when Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount, that He was addressing it to Christians.

There were no Christians in the world when Jesus gave that message. Jesus specifically addressed to His fellow Jews, and Jesus and them were bound to the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus purpose in giving the Sermon on the Mount was to teach His fellow Jews the best attitude and approach for keeping the Mosaic Covenant, The Torah. Jesus, as Israel's true Chief Rabbi, gave the best Sermon ever on the right attitude and heart needed to keep all 613 of the Mosaic Laws. Still, none but Jesus kept the entire Mosaic Covenant with all its' Laws.

For instance, Jesus taught His fellow Jews: Love your God, with all your Might, Mind, and Soul; and your neighbor as yourself, If you hate your brother (fellow Jewish men) in your heart, you are already guilty of murder. And this because hatred is a seed that grows into murder.

There is much to learn about the trappings of sin in the Sermon on the Mount, and we Christians are inspired by Jesus words in His Sermon on the Mount. But it is not the Gospel of Jesus. The Gospel (Good News) of Jesus is that we who accept the Atoning Blood of Jesus as washing away all our sins for all time, these shall also receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in us, through Whom we will be perfected by God to do the good He created us to do, that no man can boast in his own achievements. Salvation is truly a gift in God and the indwelling Holy Spirit changes our very nature as we walk with God and we talk with God. We are not saved by an act of our will, but by the Faith of Jesus we are saved.

It is important to know that if Jesus ever preached the Gospel prior to His death, then He would have sinned by breaking the Mosaic Covenant. He can not be keeping the Mosaic Covenant if He is teaching another Covenant, another Law. The Jews accused Jesus of doing this, and Jesus explained that was not true. It was only upon His Resurrection that Jesus plainly explained to His disciples the New Covenant. Before His Resurrection he only hinted that a New Covenant was coming.

And where there is a change of Covenant with God there comes a change of Law.

As for David Servant's book, I believe he does great harm to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Take his worse case In Paul's letter to Corinthians, the young man who is having sex with his mother, a very awful sin. Paul wants him handed over to Satan. Why? So this young man will become saved. The worst sinner in the Corinthian Church will be saved. Christians do not lose their salvation, ever. For God will accomplish His will and purpose for all who have put themselves under the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus. No Christian earns their salvation by their good deeds and accomplishments.

And anyone claims that I'm saying that we are free to commit any and all sins to our heart and flesh's content, is just plain stupid. It's like saying, now that I am saved, I could get a gun and shoot off my knee caps because no matter what happens, I am saved. All sins have one thing in common, they bring forth needless pain and suffering. If we love others as we love ourselves, we would treat them in the ways we ourselves truly wish to be treated. By what measure we measure others, so shall we be measured. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement.




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Arthur Biele

 2011/9/3 13:39Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Art, are you saying that Jesus Christ born again in us is our new nature, which without we are none of His and the Holy Spirit is the revealer of that new nature as we are in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Quote: """Salvation is truly a gift in God and the indwelling Holy Spirit changes our very nature as we walk with God and we talk with God. We are not saved by an act of our will, but by the Faith of Jesus we are saved."""

Gal 2: 20

I agree with your post in the truth of the scriptures.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/9/3 15:35Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

When you have a pre-text of a 'historical Jesus' you will miss the real Jesus that says " He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

and cannot keep His sayings because you thought they are not addressed to you. Your Bible just got reduced to a history book.

The problem is when you view the Sermon on the Mount in historical context only, you get a historical understanding of the gospel. You misinterpret Jesus and the spirit of prophecy that is always relevant for all that have ears. Once you have 'selective ears' what you get in this particular case results in Antinomian doctrines resembling another gospel.

And just to be fully clear about that, antinomian heresy is not Christianity, and never will be.

In that context The Great Gospel Deception by David Servant should be required reading, because so many professing Christians never heard the true Gospel.

 2011/9/4 21:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

What is the final Gospel given to Paul?

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Php 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What is this dispensation of the Gospel Paul says is "My Gospel", what is this mystery? What glorious Gospel was committed to Pauls trust? How are the secrets of Men going to be judged? "My Gospel"

Even the fulfillment of the Word of God. To God the only wise One.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

The Mystery; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the mystery, Pauls "MY Gospel" by which we will be judged.

The way and the workings of "My Gospel"

Galatians 1:6-12 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Any other Gospel except the Mystery of Christ birthed in the believer making us new creatures in Christ and son's of God, the preacher of any other gospel is cursed.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is where we stand in Christ, by the Father who has birthed us in Christ, even before the foundation of the world. God chose all those who believe to be in Christ.
Eph 1: 4

This is our rejoicing, even if we suffer and fill up that which is behind of the affliction of Christ in our flesh for His body the Church's sake.

Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Final Gospel, the mystery, "My Gospel", Paul warning every man and teaching us in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect """"IN CHRIST"""".

Christ in us is the Gospel given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/9/5 3:34Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by a-servant on 2011/9/4 18:49:46

"And just to be fully clear about that, antinomian heresy is not Christianity, and never will be."

I agree.

For you to address this to me tells me you do not properly read, or do not understand, what I have written.

I am not Lawless, I live under the Laws of Jesus Christ, given in the New Covenant.

The Law of Liberty.

The Royal Law of Love.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ.

These are the Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. I explained my understanding of these laws in an earlier post in this thread.

Apparently, you have placed yourself under the Mosaic laws of the Old Covenant.

As you can plainly see, I am not antimonian (i.e. Lawless), I am under the Laws of Jesus Christ.

And I remind you that the NT Book of Hebrews states that Jesus is not a High Priest according to Levi, but rather, Jesus is High Priest according to the everlasting priesthood of Melchizedek, a far superior Priesthood and Law than the Leviticus priesthood and Laws. And that were there is a change of Priesthood there is a change of Law.

Hebrews clearly states this:

Heb 7:11-22
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 FOR WHEN THE PRIESTHOOD IS CHANGED, OF NECESSITY THERE TAKES PLACE A CHANGE OF LAW. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

Read verses 18, and 19 above carefully.

I suggest you rethink what Covenant and Law you are under.

And the above post by Christinyou points in the right direction.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/9/6 9:49Profile





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