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 Re:

Phanetheus says:

Quote:
there were two trees in the garden and there was law to obey in regarding how to best conduct life.




And herein lies the problem, today. We try to conduct life (Jesus) rather than LIFE conducting us. This is the sad state of Christendom, today.

We don't know how best to conduct life but we think we do and that is why we are to walk after the Spirit. Adam and Eve thought they knew how to conduct life, too.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Julius


 2011/7/23 12:08
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
One very important point Paul brings out in Rom. 7 is that we have been freed from the law and have been married to another. The obedience to God that we now practice should come no longer from observance of carnal ordinances but rather from the outflow of a righteous spirit and the desire to please the one who first loved us and gave Himself for us.



Excellent point!

Paul goes on in the 7th of Romans to describe himself in the present tense: "I am carnal, sold under sin" (v.14) In 1 Timothy 1:15 he says he is the chief of sinners, present tense. How can he say these things after so many years of successful service?

He knows he is still completely dependent on God's love and grace. This is difficult for us to receive. We are so bound to the idea of rewards for success. After some years as a Christian we tend to think we are somebody and can do something, almost like God can depend on us. We begin to think that we should receive from God some kind of reward for our efforts, but the moment we do this we come under the law with the result that sinful passions come back to life.

We must learn that even the devoted apostle is no better than a wretch, a helpless sinner when he is left to himself and trusts in his own experiences. In fact such a man has left the gospel which is God's power unto salvation.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2011/7/23 18:26Profile









 Re:

"And herein lies the problem, today. We try to conduct life (Jesus) rather than LIFE conducting us. This is the sad state of Christendom, today."
~Julius21

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. . .And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. . .
. . .And hereby we know that
HE ABIDETH IN US BY THE SPIRIT HE HATH GIVEN US.
~ Proverbs 3.5-6/I John 3.22-24

Amen
'Amen'
'These things are believed, followed, and threfore are spoken.'


There is no LIFE, no TRUTH, no WAY outside of Jesus Christ.

We must die and find LIFE in Jesus. Our complete heart's imaginations and thoughts must find a new life in Jesus, so actions will fruit out from abiding in His LIFE.

------------------------------------------------------


Brother Jim,

There is no reconciliation with God until people repent.

Sin destroys faith(fulness) in trusting God.

Being both blind and deaf, it must be revealed that God will never conciliate with men until they are first brought to recognition, and agree with their need for relationship with Him.

With a COMPLETE heart turned to God, there is room for relationship.
Without this, a person has not really turned to God at all.

How will a blind person realize they are not going the right(eous) direction God says to go with no one guiding them?
How will a deaf person hear except by example?

Can a blind person lead a blindman in the right direction?
Can a deaf person know unless he be shown?

There is good reason to emphasis God's judgement for disobedience to His prescribed way as the absolute standard to walk into holy, right, and good things on earth.
How will a deaf and blind person figure this out unless they are shown the consequences for things done the wrong way are God's judgement.
(This is actually merciful loving kindness, though many fail to recognize it as this.)

Every person reaps the results of what they do.
God is not the one who advocates parallel relativity.


Our Father provides
for all men
as
HE deems neccesary,

gregg

p.s. Euthenasia is already being done here in the land of the free-thinker & home of the naive, though presently it is in subjective form. Soon, this will become an objective reality. Closing in on age 50, maybe i might be one fortunate enough to rest in peace earlier than God designed.

 2011/7/23 18:31
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Ron: I actually believe the present tense that Paul uses as he writes is not indicative of the idea that he is going through the thing he is writing. I believe Rom. 7 is a treatise on the fruitlessness and frustration, Paul calls it wretchedness, that resulted from His trying to please God and attain unto righteousness when he was still living under bondage to the law. At the end of that description he asks who it is that will deliver him from this body of death. We know from the beginnings of the chapter that this death is that which is produced by the law as it strengthens or empowers sin over us and convinces us of unrighteousness. The only thing that can bring us life and deliver us from the death that was under the law is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Then Paul begins to talk about the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Salvation by grace through faith if you will) setting us free from the law of sin and death (The bondage of attempting to please God by keeping the law in our own ability). Just my thoughts for you to consider.


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Travis

 2011/7/23 21:05Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Ron: I actually believe the present tense that Paul uses as he writes is not indicative of the idea that he is going through the thing he is writing. I believe Rom. 7 is a treatise on the fruitlessness and frustration, Paul calls it wretchedness, that resulted from His trying to please God and attain unto righteousness when he was still living under bondage to the law. At the end of that description he asks who it is that will deliver him from this body of death. We know from the beginnings of the chapter that this death is that which is produced by the law as it strengthens or empowers sin over us and convinces us of unrighteousness. The only thing that can bring us life and deliver us from the death that was under the law is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Then Paul begins to talk about the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Salvation by grace through faith if you will) setting us free from the law of sin and death (The bondage of attempting to please God by keeping the law in our own ability). Just my thoughts for you to consider.



Travis, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am reminded that many discussions have taken place down the centuries as to whether in chapter 7 Paul was thinking of his condition before or after his conversion on the Damascus Road. There are good arguments on both sides.

But I believe that the question of Christian or non-Christian doesn't really come into Paul's line of thinking in this chapter. His problem is the relationship between man and the law, whether the man is a Christian or not. A Christian is not under the law but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent on the grace of God in Christ, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian, having nothing more than his strength of character to rely upon. So the tragedy repeats itself, sin finds occasion through the commandment.

By using the first person Paul is making his point, stressing that he himself is not excluded from total dependence on the grace of God to keep him from the dominion of sin.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2011/7/23 21:44Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Ron: Have you considered these verses?

Gal 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Recall in the early church that some Pharisees were born again but still taught that a Christian should keep the law including circumcision. The apostles and elders considered this and rejected it outright saying that the now believers should simply "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

If as a Christian I am relying simply on the strength of my own character to live a holy life then, to be blunt, I was probably never born again but simply converted to an alternate lifestyle from the one I was living having seen the benefits of clean living. A man born again is a man who has died and been regenerated. He lives not out of his own power any longer but directed by and empowered by the Holy Spirit. He does not need the carnal ordinance any longer as he has the giver of that ordinance living out through him. I am not saying the law is bad or evil. I am not encouraging licensiousness. But Paul made clear in Galatians that just as I do not keep the law for salvation I also do not keep the law for maintenance and growth. However if I am directed by the Holy Spirit and surrender to Him I will live a life of holiness and purity that is pleasing to God.


_________________
Travis

 2011/7/24 14:36Profile









 Re:


I'm reckoning reading Romans 6 and 8 to understand 7, seeing how there were no divisions of chpts and verses in Paul's letters, so no contraditions, thank GOD.

 2011/7/24 15:24
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
If as a Christian I am relying simply on the strength of my own character to live a holy life then, to be blunt, I was probably never born again but simply converted to an alternate lifestyle from the one I was living having seen the benefits of clean living.



I believe that in chapter 7 Paul is warning all believers against the danger of thinking that the gospel should be understood as God's means whereby we are enabled to fulfill the law and so become righteous in ourselves. If we understand the gospel in this way then we cannot avoid a direct confrontation with the law, thinking that now, thanks to the power of God through the gospel, we are able to fulfil it. This must bring failure, for everyone of us will fail if we have a direct confrontation with the law.

Paul regarded bondage to the law as extremely dangerous. That is why he fights against it uncompromisingly in his letter to the Galatians, and why he concentrates on exposing its deceptive appeal in the Roman letter. He says frankly that his flesh has not been improved nor tamed by his many years of Christian experience. Every time he reverts to the thought of reward, then - but only then - his flesh gets its opportunity and exposes itself as incorrigibly sinful. This is very humiliating, but it is the realistic truth.

The revealing autobiography of chapter 7 provides a radical emphasis on the fact that the law is never any help in living the Christian life, and it therefore acts as an introduction to the liberating preaching of the gospel found in chapter 8.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2011/7/24 15:30Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Ron: I believe I agree. I am so glad I am no longer under bondage to the law. I am so thankful that I can walk in the Spirit enabled and empowered by God rather than having to rely on my own ability which I am daily reminded is wholly inadequate. Blessings Brother.


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Travis

 2011/7/24 17:22Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi ron and travis, i think you guys have nailed it.jimp

 2011/7/24 22:33Profile





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