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kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Law of God Rejected

“Jesus, looking down to the last generation, saw
the world involved in a deception similar to that
which caused the destruction of Jerusalem. The
great sin of the Jews was their rejection of Christ; the
great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection
of the law of God, the foundation of His government
in heaven and earth. The precepts of Jehovah
would be despised and set at nought.” (Great
Controversy, 22. Ellen White)

What do you think about this passage? Furthermore, when we say law of God what does it entail?

 2011/7/22 17:34Profile









 Re: Law of God Rejected

The great sin of all men is their rejection of Christ.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Christ is the law of God, fulfilled and the law of God, is Christ, not a letter which kills.

I sincerely hope Ellen White is with the Lord today. She brought "another gospel" and caused many to stumble and that's a no-no.

Julius

 2011/7/22 18:18









 Re: Law of God Rejected

It's hoped that others reading will not ignore the message because of the messenger, nor the institution that touts her as a prophetess. There is truth in the statement, yet this calls for discernment.





Personal perspective recieved through: relationship with Jesus, the scriptures, visions and dreams, the spirit of discernment, a word of knowledge here and a word of wisdom there is that this is correct. . .to a certain extent.

The last generation--SOME of whom are reading this right now--unto whom the end of the age shall come, will be. . .
". . .involved in a deception similar to that
which caused the destruction of Jerusalem. The
great sin of the Jews was their rejection of Christ; the
great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection of. . ."
Jesus Christ and those who follow Him in testifying:
Jesus Christ was crucified and offered up His life blood(not to abolish the Torah<--'The Law'--
and the prophets) but to fully validate everything recorded before laying down his earthly life.

This too is blindness: both Jewish and Gentile religious organizations touting traditions not found in scripture, giving more significance to these traditions of men than to what God really says.

The Pharisees with both the associated orthodoxy and liberalism of Judaism,
--ecumenical in relations because of their judaic humanism expressed through religious contrivances Jesus called traditions of men--rejected Jesus because He showed them their theosophic beliefs had no foundation in the word of God.

Today we see the same thing under the same guise of christian humanism, all these man made heirarchies, be they whatever ISM.

Religion will kill what it cannot abide, thinking it is doing God a favor.

The tables have not shifted, yet. The only difference at the day of the Lord will be that the whole world will be without excuse, and not just the jews.

Jesus is the very expression of
'God's instructional teachings'<--'Torah', that people of a (graeco-roman) western mindset are quick to call Law.

Jesus is the very expression of
all the prophets and what is scribed in Holy writ.

-----------------------------------------------------
If a person is truly walking as Jesus walked, they will do as Jesus did:
Keeping the Law and proclaiming the Prophets, both in relation to Jesus Christ crucified, and showing that His sacrafice is the fullness of God's redemption (revealed in the Old Covenant names of Yahweh), not only for man, but even animals, plants, and dirt.

What else could 'conforming to the image of His [the Father's] Son be about?



"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
[the above Jesus spoke [about salt] concerning Torah lived through the spirit of Jesus Christ in His followers. The below referece to light is His calling us all to walk in the spirit of prophecy--see Rev. 19.10]
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[below is the summary of what is stated before this]
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5.11-22


(There's more that could be said, however this is enough to think about for now.


Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32


Edited: for errors

 2011/7/22 18:36









 Re:

You know, you are right. I should not assume that he was trying to elevate the law of God (torah) above Jesus Christ and I think I was.

I should have asked for clarification.

Kwamenat, can you expound on your statement regarding the role that the "law of God" plays in the life of the Christian today versus the law of the Spirit?

Thank you and my apologies if I misunderstoon you.

Julius

 2011/7/22 19:58









 Re:

"I sincerely hope Ellen White is with the Lord today. She brought "another gospel" and caused many to stumble and that's a no-no."

I hope so too, I have read some of her writings and they were a blessing to me. I never read anything that she had written that pertained to law keeping, it was very much grace oriented.

There is a righteousness that is contained in the law and we should love Justice Mercy and Faith and do them whenever the need arises. But to use them as our salvation, forget it, Christ is our righteousness, that is a done deal.

 2011/7/22 21:32









 Re:

Julius 21,
(This was intended for explanation in the "GOD IS NOT THREE PERSONS" thread; but, His spirit saw fitting for this beautiful collision to occur instead.)

Your very first statement,
following with the very first verse,
says diferently than what you think you are thinking. . .
if that makes sense to you?

(You know, we posted so close together time wise, that your first post was not noted until now coming back to check SI after worship and Bible study.)

You lifted up Jesus Chist,
by unction of His holy spirit
in your first statement. . .
--[:"The great sin of all men is their rejection of Christ."]--
. . .who will as Jesus states in John 16:

7 I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send THE-BACKWIND unto you.

8 And when THAT ONE COMES [there will be]:ADMONISHING the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
[From Greek maniscripts, the verses above literally do not mention any 'HE' in reference to the Holy Spirit (comforter). (This is an assumption of AnglicanISM, which came out of Roman CatholicISM. So, with EMPHASIS ON WHAT THESE VERSES REALLY SAY IN ALL CAPS, any who are reading can see how even in the translation of the Bible from Greek to English, by all the various ISM' translator's belief systems, religious humanism through traditions of men,has superceeded even scripture.]

. . .and most of us, we the sheeple,
remain blind following the blind,
both of which end up in the ditch.

The key to your first verse quoted is in the word "after", which will as well answer your query.
(Meaning, first and foremost the inner man (by the lifegiving spirit of Jesus); the Torah coming "after" = "behind-and-attached-"to

The law is never in opposition to relationship with Jesus? Jesus gave the Law in the first place!
Why would He do anything to change it, since He gave it and does not change.

No there is no opposition of any Torah in the RE(new)ED covenant.

By God's calendar, the significance of Pentecost is this:
First pentecost the Law OF GOD was provided
--[not of, but through Moshe), contrary to the 'christian' humanISM of ProtestantISM claims]--
Second Pentecost, 50 days after Seder/Passover, was THE-BACKWIND.

The Spirit OF the Lord is given to fulfill the Torah/Law in us.

If people looked at their Bibles more and ignored what humanistic religious men assume about it, they shall recieve revelation into this by the spirit OF Christ Jesus.

The above makes much more sense and finds congruency when considering the above things in relation to what it says repeatedly in John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that WILL-REMAIN with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth THE-BACKDRAFT/WIND not, neither knoweth THE-BACKWIND: but ye know THE-BACKWIND; FOR/IT REMAINS with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

AND AGAIN
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

AND AGAIN
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, THAT-SELFSAME-ONE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you.
If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. . .


i shall continue to pray that the eyes of everyones here, that they shall be filled with light and power through the holy spirit OF Truth/Jesus as they grow in their knowledge of the doctrine of Christ.

It's deeply desired this makes sense to everyone here that reads this.

JESUS SAVES.
RELIGIOUS 'doctrines' [of demons] STEAL, KILL, AND DESTROY.

Follow in the footsteps of our Great Shepherd and lover of our souls, the Lord Jesus Christ. His holy spirit will manifest THE-BACKWIND OF Himself if we but trust and obey.


Peace out,

g


 2011/7/23 0:10
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,there were 2 trees in the garden of interest one was the forbidden tree... the knowledge of good and evil.....the other the tree of Life... Jesus.my problem with folks today is they "serve a mean and nasty God" with rules and regulations and laws. no grace ,no mercy,but justice abounding.we are chewing on the same fruit adam and eve enjoyed and everyone else is wrong and a heretic now why do you think folks arent rushing to this legalistic crap.Jesus said He did not come here to condemn the world but to save it.God is love... he who loveth not knoweth not God.when we come to Christ we come and die and put on Christ.we have entered into Him and there is therefore no condemnation(judgement) for those in Christ Jesus.my chidren, when they mess up , are still my children. have a good night.jimp

 2011/7/23 0:49Profile









 Re:

Dear jimp,

there were two trees in the garden and there was law to obey in regarding how to best conduct life.

What do you consider legalism? Are you aware of what exactly legalism is, by the way the Bible examples it to us?

Do you understand what exactly the Bible defines as what love exactly is?
You should have just read the main emphasis of what this love for God is, from the Bible references in my previous post.

Many people in these last days will think that following the rules society dictates, they are following the laws of God.

For example, we have a president who has exhalted himself above God's law, and by implication setting himself up as though he were God to determine what the rules will now be.
Now he approves homosexual unions as a standard of tolerance and love, and not only institutes the use of taxes to murder babies here in america, and other lands as well. (You can call it abortion if you want, but it's infanticide.)

We have a generation of people so thin skinned, they can't tolerate anything that shows them that theyu are not walking in righteousness with man and before God. They fall in line and use 'politically correct' speech losing further sight of the real issues at stake.

By straying from God's holy standard (the Law) they cannot even discern when they themselves are sinning right along with, just as guilty as the practicioners of homosexuality and infanticide.

Homosexuality is not proclaimed as sin by most who claim to be Jesus own, yet God's law says that even adultery is an abomination unto Him. Supposed christians are financing the infanticide through tax law compliance.

America will be destroyed for these two transgressions of God's Law. Because God is love, he will not tolerate when we take it upon ourselves to kill babies, and advocate homosexual agenda's through silence.

The land and air will spit people from itself even those who are complicit with adultery/sodomy/bestiality.

Any nation that has killed it's own children God has destroyed. What about a nation that finances and promotes the murder of not only it's innocent chjildren, but those of other nations too.

The national deficit is actually well over 100 billion already, hidden figures for medicare/medicaid being over 85 billion in debt already, not to mention what the government will actually reveal about the national deficit.
(Very very soon, this nation will no longer be the international financial standard, and enemies of this nation whom those wise financial planners have loaned this nation to will be expecting payment, if not in resources, in blood.)

Grace in Jesus Christ, which is love, says that to even to look (on anything--as in coveteousness) with desire that changes the way we should consider things compared to God's standard of His Law is idolatry. Jesus provided a physical example of this starting at Matthew 5.27.

Grace does not mean the Law is abolished. Grace means that obeying God is not just the letter, but the spirit of the matter. Now God's Law is in fuller force than before he said, "it-is-finished". (See Hebrews 12.6- chapters end)

Oh i tell others about many more calamnities that will fall here without a change of ways, fearing God and not man, but nobody listens.

Do you know how i weep for the spiritual blindness and lack of discernment by many who say, let's just love each other by trying to get along.


With the Bible as your resource:
Define love, Define Law, Define legalism.
Then see if what you are saying agrees with scripture or not.




Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
~Romans 13.10

1Jn 3:

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


Love,
gregg

 2011/7/23 2:02
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

dear gregg,i understand that the word says be sure your sins will find you out. and there is penalty for sin and i agree with you about murdering babies. wait till they figure out that they can balance the budget by killing old people.(i am72)i also believe that if one is a glutton he will either die early of heart or organ problems or be crippled in his joints. if a man drinks he will have family problems and job problems and money problems etc..the homosexual or the permiscuous life style is full of dispair and sickness and one can be given up to a reprobate mind. in my near 50 years of salvation and ministry i have seen it all. saying that, i have seen the goodness of God bring many to repentance. i have seen God make ones life very miserable to a point that they only had one way to turn and when they ran back to the Father He put the robe,the ring and the shoes on them.sin is awful and grace is much the better. i want people to preach Jesus and Him crucified and not talk about sin that He already won victory over.Jesus and His grace and His faith and what He did for us plus nothing but our death.all extra dos and donts are legalism.most do not separate the spirit and the flesh when talking about the wages of sin.the wages of sin will always be death but the Gift of God will always be eternal life.jimp God is love.

 2011/7/23 4:15Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Law of God Rejected

kwamenat: To evaluate the statement means in part looking at the philosophy of the source of the statement. Ellen White is looked on by the Seventh Day Adventists as foundational. Keeping in mind what she believed and what is taught by the SDA today, I believe we can get an idea of the context of her statements.

SDA doctrine states officially that salvation is by the free gift of grace alone and that it cannot be earned by any kind of works. In this I can agree with them. However in practice the group is very legalistic. I have watched a bit of their television network and have learned that in practice failure to keep the sabbath is looked on as a sign of apostasy. They are also quite adamant about keeping many of the other OT laws. The official statement on their website states this:

"The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness."

However in practice it the law seems to be much more to the SDA than this statement leads one to believe.

Paul was very specific about the purpose of the law as was Jesus. The law was not meant to produce righteousness nor was keeping the law a sign of righteousness. The law was meant to produce death in us. It showed us a picture of the Holiness of God and His standard of righteousness. Jesus in Matt. 5 revealed it to be a very incomplete picture. This is obvious since the law was, as Paul put it, carnal ordinances. That which is carnal can only dimly reflect the true nature of God. However the law was sufficient to condemn man and to reveal to him the utter despair at ever trying to be righteous on his own. This is the very despair spoken of by Paul in Romans 7.

One very important point Paul brings out in Rom. 7 is that we have been freed from the law and have been married to another. The obedience to God that we now practice should come no longer from observance of carnal ordinances but rather from the outflow of a righteous spirit and the desire to please the one who first loved us and gave Himself for us. Remember how the initial Gentile believers were not keeping the law as was the practice of many of the initial Jewish believers. This caused quite a discussion:

Act 15:1-32 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (2) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (3) And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. (4) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. (5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (12) Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (13) And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: (14) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (15) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, (16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. (18) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: (23) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: (24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: (25) It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (26) Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. (27) We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. (28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (30) So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: (31) Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. (32) And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Notice verse 24...Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The apostles said that a commandment to be circumcised and keep the law was the subverting of the gentile's souls. Pretty straight forward words.

The law is good if used lawfully Paul said. The lawful use is the condemn us of missing God's standard.

There is some benefit in doing the things contained in the law. In Colossians we find:

Col 2:13-23 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, (19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. (20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not; (22) Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

When we voluntarily submit ourselves to God in keeping a part of the law we shew wisdom in will worship, in humility, and in putting to death the flesh, but this is not in order to earn points with God or to be righteous in His sight. If we are led of the Holy Spirit and obey we will walk in the law of God after the Spirit and not after the flesh which was only found in carnal ordinances.

Hope that helps.


_________________
Travis

 2011/7/23 11:37Profile





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