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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : If I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me

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TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 321


 If I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me

I wish to engage in some speculation here. I don't want to come across as dogmatic and inflexible in my opinion, so don't get outraged if you disagree with what I am about to propose. I also don't want to be misinterpreted as attacking the Holy Scriptures. I'm not, I just feel that the English translators of the Bible made a poor guess as to how to translate John 12:32. I now quote John 12 starting with verse 31 and ending with verse 33:
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said , signifying what death he should die.

Too bad this forum can't display italics (like we used to be able to). Anyway, in verse 32 the word men is in italics which means that it is not in the original Greek. The verse translated word for word from Greek into English would read:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.
I understand that the translators felt the need to put in a word after all so as to make the passage clearer. But I don't think that the word men is the correct word to use here. Look at the previous verse (31): Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. The context of verse 32 is found in 31: Judgment. Therefore I believe that a better translation of verse 32 should be: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all judgment unto me. I can almost hear some scream and howl in protest. We have all grown up learning this verse reading it as "all men" and when read that way it paints a rather beautifully quaint idea of Jesus hanging on the Cross and lost souls being drawn to him in humility and adoration. However, there are reasons why that way of translating and interpreting it are wrong.
1)Isaiah 53:2 he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised , and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken , smitten of God, and afflicted.
The sight of Jesus hanging on the Cross was horrific and gruesome. Nobody in their right mind would be attracted or drawn to it. And when Jesus was hanging on the Cross, nobody on earth knew that he was dying as a sacrificial lamb for the sins of the people. Not even the disciples or Jesus' mother Mary.
2) Problems with the word all. If the verse read something like: if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all the elect unto me. I could buy that. But in what way did Jesus on the cross draw ALL MEN unto him? What does that even mean? Does "draw all men unto me" mean that they come to salvation? Impossible. Plenty of people who knew Christ before, during and after his crucifixion died unsaved and went to hell. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that when you insert the word men (which doesn't exist in the original Greek) you end up with a verse that is very hard to interpret or understand.
I know I am stepping on toes here because of tradition. My purpose is not to stir up strife or attack sacred cows. Like I said, I'm not married to my translation or interpretation of this verse. Let us have a amicable discussion and not resort to accusation and name-calling.
If any of you wish to respond in defense of the traditional translation of "all men", I would simply ask you to give as detailed an explanation as you can as to what that verse means because I'm stumped.

 2011/7/14 13:57Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3000


 Re: If I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me

Actually I like it best without any word added at all:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.

When Jesus Christ is lifted up, the result is an unseen force - like the pull of a magnet - that draws all unto Him. But also like the force of a magnet, He can be resisted. Those that do not resist will become one with Him. Those that do resist will eventually lose that which has been offered.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

How the iron core works

The material of the core of the magnet (usually iron) is composed of small regions called magnetic domains that act like tiny magnets (see ferromagnetism). Before the current in the electromagnet is turned on, the domains in the iron core point in random directions, so their tiny magnetic fields cancel each other out, and the iron has no large scale magnetic field. When a current is passed through the wire wrapped around the iron, its magnetic field penetrates the iron, and causes the domains to turn, aligning parallel to the magnetic field, so their tiny magnetic fields add to the wire's field, creating a large magnetic field that extends into the space around the magnet. The larger the current passed through the wire coil, the more the domains align, and the stronger the magnetic field is. Finally all the domains are lined up, and further increases in current only cause slight increases in the magnetic field: this phenomenon is called saturation.

When the current in the coil is turned off, most of the domains lose alignment and return to a random state and the field disappears. However some of the alignment persists, because the domains have difficulty turning their direction of magnetization, leaving the core a weak permanent magnet. This phenomenon is called hysteresis and the remaining magnetic field is called remanent magnetism. The residual magnetization of the core can be removed by degaussing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet


_________________
"Do what thou wilt." - Satan

 2011/7/14 15:48Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1197
North Central Florida

 Re:

TrueWitness, Both your translation and what HeartSong said sound good to me. Thank you both for sharing your findings.

Kind regards,
white stone

 2011/7/14 19:07Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2349
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: If I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me

Quote:
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. The context of verse 32 is found in 31: Judgment. Therefore I believe that a better translation of verse 32 should be: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all judgment unto me.



Traditional or not, I believe the King James (and others) have it right.

You are right that the context is concerning the judgment of the world system. But that doesn't mean He was drawing judgment to Himself but rather that by being lifted up and crucified on a cross, and not by rising to a worldly throne, Jesus would set up His eternal kingdom in the world, and gather many to Himself. The self-seeking, demonically inspired kingdoms of this world were judged there in the selfless, humble, sacrifice of Calvary.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

His death as our substitute has indeed drawn many out of the world and into His kingdom. And one day all will bow before the Lamb who was lifted up and slain and confess that He is Lord and King.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
You have said, Seek My face [inquire for and require My presence as your vital need]. My heart says to You, Your face (Your presence), Lord, will I seek, inquire for, and require [of necessity and on the authority of Your Word]. (Psalm 27:8 Amplified Bible)

 2011/7/14 21:20Profile





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