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 Re:

[i]1 Sam 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

1 Sam 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.[/i]

Saul knew he was to put away those with familiar spirits but valued his hide and the information he desired for it above the commandment of the Lord.

[i]1 Sam 28:14 And Saul perceived that it was Samuel[/i]

The Bible doesn’t state that it was Samuel, but only that Saul perceived this. Saul’s perception was blinded by his sin as we see later.

[i]1 Sam 28:15 God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:

2 Chron 35:18 …from the days of Samuel the prophet…[/i]

Samuel was a prophet, God answered Saul no more by prophets.

[i]1 Sam 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?[/i]

No child of God is ever referred to in scripture as the Lord’s enemy, and the Lord having departed from Saul, all that Saul has left is the dark side.

[i]1 Sam 28:19 …to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me….[/i]

One does not go from being the enemy of God one day, to being with God the next without a change of heart. No such change of heart is recorded, therefore the next day Saul was not with Samuel, but with someone who is not with God, that only leaves one other place.

Saul was damned.


OJ

 2011/7/2 0:14
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

In lieu of Joe's post, I realized I was a bit off in my first post. When I said he was in Abraham's bosom, I meant the realm of the dead. I just double checked the passage in Luke, and it does not say that the portion where the rich man was was called Abraham's bosom, but Hades. That was my mistake. I was thinking about how the rich man could talk to Lazarus across the divide. My earlier post was not intended in any way to say what his eternal fate was. In my mind I equated Abraham's bosom just as the realm of the dead. Please forgive me.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/7/2 1:29Profile









 Re:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

 2011/7/3 8:01
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

That was pretty unwarranted. You have now 2 times in this thread stained peoples reputations with your accusing words. I ask that you please refrain from doing that. The forum rules state that you are to "play the ball" and "not the man."


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/7/3 8:25Profile









 Re:

I've never been on a Christian forum that didn't have a few whack jobs on it. In fact the reason a lot of people are on here is that they have some major issues in their own life. A lot of folks have been hurt in church and they hang out on this board thinking they can live a Christian life on an island. I would not exclude myself from being in the "messed up" category.

So I think for that reason I am going to refrain from posting on Christian forums anymore. What is needed is accountability by going to church or even home church. It is getting involved in people's lives. There are just way too many wounded people on these forums, and people get their feelings hurt too easy.

I actually prefer the college sports forums because you can actually tell somebody to kiss your *** and still be friends with them. I mean they will forgive you. No so with these easily wounded, touchey feely Christians on Christian forums. But there are some really wonderful and sweet people on these forums too. So that's my opinion. Thanks.

 2011/7/3 10:52
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

I've never been told to kiss someone's asteriks before, but I forgive you nonetheless.

Was just having a conversation about this a couple weeks ago with a christian brother. I don't think either of us are cemented into our views, but here's mine...

I don't think it was Samuel as it seems very out of character and pattern here for God to not answer Saul, then reverse and send Samuel to answer for Him, in the presence of a witch nonetheless.



Second, in Acts 16:16 you have a demon posessed girl urging others to follow Paul to learn the way of salvation...

Quote:
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.



and we read elsewhere of Paul...

Quote:
(2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.)



Therefore, we cannot, imho, allow the fact that 'Samuel' was telling proper things to Saul be a proof that it was Samuel.


And third, (here's where it gets a little iffy), it's been told me by one very close to me that when using a uija board at a young age, one asked the spirit its name to which it replied 'Sam'. A distant relative had a business in a Canadian city as a Spiritist of which one of the spirits he called upon was named 'Sam'. If you've noticed, in a great many Hollywood movies that deal in occult, the name 'Sam' is used ('Sam I am' etc). Even the eccentric Dr. Seuss's 'Green eggs and ham, Sam I am' is cause for a possible second look.

Is it possible that many spirits use the name 'Sam' in reference to one of their favorite deceptions?

If we were to say that God did send spirits back to talk to those requesting an audience, it would seem to contradict a few passages...

Quote:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus




Quote:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



EDIT: (I realize those last 2 verses are fairly weak to make my point as context is not exactly the same, but they might speak partially to this topic.)

I'm not fully persuaded either way myself, but I'd lean safely to question the claim that God sent Samuel back from the dead as an angel of light. Good topic.

 2011/7/5 17:45Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re:

ceedub,

You presented some very interesting observations about "sam".

From the references quoted in Acts we also read where Paul commanded the evil spirits to come out of the girl, rendering her useless to her masters. Acts 16:18-19.

From other references we do see where evil spirits apparently can tell the truth, they dogged Jesus during his ministry...

Quote:
Therefore, we cannot, imho, allow the fact that 'Samuel' was telling proper things to Saul be a proof that it was Samuel.



It sure sounds like Samuel, rebuking Saul, but this does not mean it really was...maybe this is a profound lesson on how truthful a demon can be and how well he can imitate God's message? Just wondering because Saul did inquire of the LORD through accepted methods but God was silent. So, why then would God use a witch to speak to his message?

BTW, have you ever heard the devil suggest to you that when God seems to be silent that perhaps you need to check out a horoscope? or something similar?


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Sandra Miller

 2011/7/5 19:15Profile
Friedrick
Member



Joined: 2004/8/19
Posts: 110
Nicaragua

 Re:

I wonder why many people, and my own initial instinct is to say that the spirit called by the medium for Saul was Sammuel...

I believe it is because at even a subconcious level most of us expect God to answer and guide us, even when we are blatently disobiedent to his initial word for us.


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Joshua

 2011/7/5 22:57Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Just another thought when considering God's dealing with Saul, and that's found in 2 Sam 7, where God tells David that He will not remove mercy from David's offspring as He did with Saul.

I think that fits with Friedrick's statement about what we expect (and I think somewhat rightfully so for those of us that are hidden in Christ) compared to what Saul received.

The story of Saul should make us all the more grateful for the cleft in the Rock that God has placed us in, Jesus Christ.



 2011/7/6 0:41Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Saul and the medium...


I am ok in what I believe the word of God says in certain passages and God knows I have to be on here sometimes!! haha (that was a tad bit of GOOD HEARTED sarcasm for those who didn't get it!) so the following is just my view but I believe the witch called up Samuel.

Now, why do I believe that? Well, the power of calling up the dead is real no matter how a Christian tries to explain that it isn't. And the witch of endor KNEW her power, she was not playing around (like the lady in the movie Ghost was), she knew what she could do... 2 Samuel 28.11: Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"

I like the NASB version of this a bit better, it's more clearer in the meaning...

And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me." When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul." The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

The word doesn't say Samuel was in hell or heaven but in the earth (in this version), so if the earth means hell, then so be it because Matt 27.52-53 NASB says: 'The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.' And I only know of two people who left this world upwards that lived in the O.T., Enoch and Elijah. (edit: all the rest were guilty of not keeping the Law. unedit)

I seriously believe that we (Christian human beings) have TAINTED the word of God with what each of us wants to believe WHAT the Word of God says. We have tainted the meaning of God's word with what we have been taught by what our church believes about something (and we cling to it for dear life) OR what a wordy commentary says instead of what the Word of our blessed God actually does say and we just explain it away and I'm not just talking about Saul and the witch. God help us all.

In the NASB, the translated Hebrew is "Saul KNEW it was Samuel" and not something else the witch conjured up instead, but actually Samuel the prophet. The KJV doesn't always get the translating correct. Search out other versions and see what you consenus you get, don't just believe me.

God bless you all!! To God be all the Glory!

Lisa


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Lisa

 2011/7/6 8:27Profile





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