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docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2015


 The rapture and the resurrection

It's common believed by many that when a early secret rapture of the church occurs that the righteous dead in Christ will be raised when this event occurs.

13 - But we don't want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Those verses above are those usually presented as those describing the rapture of the church and Paul is telling them to not grieve for believers who are dead because they will be raised even before the living believers and meet the Lord in the air. And that will occur before the time known as the Great Tribulation. Then after this rapture comes the Great Tribulation which ends with the second coming of Christ. The Bible portrays the Great Tribulation as a time of evangelization and when many converts to Christ will be made and some or many of them will lose their life during this time.

"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death." (Rev 12:11).

9 - And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of his anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in thepresence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his name, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 "And I heard a loud voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on! "Yes," says the Spirit, "That they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them." (Rev 14:9-13)

That's just an example of persevering believers dying during the Tribulation - "those who die in the Lord from now on."

My question is when will those who "die in the Lord" during the Tribulation be resurrected? I've always been taught there is only one resurrection of the righteous and it was commonly believed throughout church history that this would occur at the second coming of Jesus. So, if the righteous dead are resurrected at the secret early rapture and those who die in the Lord during the Tribulation are resurrected at the second coming of Christ doesn't that make two resurrections of the righteous? And where are two resurrections of the righteous taught in scripture?

4 - And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgments were given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon thier forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life (were resurrected) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 - The rest of the dead (the unrighteous)did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection;

6 - Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these will the second death have no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6)

We see clearly the first resurrection of the righteous is only portrayed once. Yet if there is a secret rapture in which the righteous dead are raised then what of those who give up their life during the Tribulation because of their faith in Jesus? When will they be resurrected? If they are resurrected at the second coming of Christ, well after the secret rapture, then there are two resurrections of the righteous that are to occur. It says nothing of the righteous dead who "die in the Lord" during the tribulation having to wait a thousand years to be resurrected. How is this uncharted scriptural territory to be navigated? Does believing in an early pre-trib rapture require one to believe in two resurrections of the righteous?


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David Winter

 2011/6/29 20:30Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1418


 Re: The rapture and the resurrection

Hi docs,I am not going to answer your question but a few months ago I was looking and thinking about the scripture
.
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

And I noticed this that its the changing of our bodies that happens in the twinkling of eye not the rapture.The changing of our bodies is only part of the rapture.
If we then look back to other translations we will see that they in fact may have took seconds or maybe a minute or two.What importance is this you may ask?
Well it means that there cannot be a secret rapture because the rapture isnt instantaneous.Also it is probably visible to the non christian and so will cause great reaction in them.What this reaction is I could only guess but fear would part of it,yours Staff

 2011/6/30 19:11Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: rapture and resurrection

Hello
Could you please give me the scripture or scriptures that clearly says that the Rapture of the church,(Jews and Gentiles) which Paul speaks of in Romans 11 (as the Gentiles being the wild branch being grafted into the olive tree Israel) is before the Tribulation Period?

 2011/6/30 22:21Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re: The rapture and the resurrection

Who was the first fruits of the resurrection? Who will be the second fruits, and the third fruits or the resurrection?

Does it matter which resurrection we are in? It is all resurrection, not a first, second and third, but it is all resurrection, revealed perfect in Gods timing.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/7/1 3:20Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: The Rapture and the resurrection

I certainly would like to no more, If Paul and Jesus both spoke of not being decieved regarding his coming and to be alert and ready, I for one want to know and to preach to others what is true regarding the coming of our Lord and savior, I do not want to be decieved, or to be found guilty of false teaching that could cause another to stumble.
Today especially I know it is most important to be building our relationship with our Lord and to be dieing daily as well as taking up our cross so that Jesus may be glorified in our bodies and that we may Know his resurrection power in our lives.
There will come a time where many will be chasing after Jesus or should I say who they think is Jesus, because they are not aware and not taught the Truth of his coming.

Any ideas?

 2011/7/1 6:41Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: First and second fuit

It says in Corinthians 15;20 that (Jesus is risen from the dead and he is the first fruits) of them that slept and in verse 23 that everyone in his order (Christ the first fruits) and afterward (they that are Christs at his coming).

The above verse clearly that Jesus is the First risen from the dead in the incorruptible body and that all of the rest will be risen at his coming.

 2011/7/1 6:46Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: rapture and resurrection

I think that art kaatz which is on this website speaks a great insight and truth into this subject and the purpose of the church.
I know that all would benefit from his teaching
His videos I find are good to watch

 2011/7/1 23:08Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2015


 Re: Regarding scriptures showing a rapture before the Tribulation

This is addressed to budgie. Hi bro. You asked if any scriptures could be shown that specified a rapture of the church before the Tribulation. I wasn't sure if you were asking me or one of the others who replied. If it was me, I don't believe there are any scriptures showing a secret pre-rapture before the beginning of the time known as the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble. I know I was tired and I think it was late when I put my post together and just now I went back and corrected more than one typo which I somehow passed over at that time. I see I could have been more clear. I said, "Those verses above are those usually presented as those describing the rapture of the church" and I could have said, "Those verses above are usually presented as those describing from my viewpoint what is the supposed rapture of the church before the tribulation."

There is a lot at stake in my opinion in this issue and I have been thinking and trying to logically piece together the pre-trib rapture belief and how the sequence in which it is presented lines up with what is described in scripture as the "first resurrection" which is the resurrection of the righteous. It seems to me that if one believes in a rapture before the Great Tribulation at which the righteous of all ages are resurrected and meet the Lord in the air then how can this resurrection precede the first resurrection which Rev 20:4-6 shows happens at the second coming of Christ after the tribulation. If the resurrection of the righteous after the tribulation (including any righteous who did during the Tribulation) is described by Scripture as the first resurrection then what was the resurrection at the supposed pre-trib rature seven or three and a half years ealier? It was first so why isn't it referred to as the "first resurrection?" It seems it would of had to be the first resurrection. I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture but I'm wondering how this seeming contradiction is explained by those who do. I know I've went over some of the same ground I covered in my first post.

Art Katz has had my attention since 1973 bro. I understand the burden he had for the church in this area. No problem there.

Thanks.






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David Winter

 2011/7/2 0:28Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Rapture and Resurrection

Thanks DOCS for your reply
I had not specifically asked you for a reply as I was putting it out there for any replys
I am new to this discussion forum and slowly getting used to it
I find it a great benefit to many to see how scripture can be discussed and truth to be found

Thanks again DOCS for your reply

I find this topic very interesting in todays environment

 2011/7/3 0:24Profile









 Re:

I'd never split fellowship over this but I came to believe what I believe around 1984 or so and didn't know that anyone else believed that way until 2000.
{edited out url}
I just believe that we need to read the Word as it is and the verse that warns us the strongest is that there will be a falling away first and that man of sin will be revealed.
We need to be prepared spiritually for both because that means that we'll see intense persecution and will need to face what we'd do if a "mark" is instated in order to buy and sell.
Just better to be ready for anything than to not be.

Bless you Doc.

 2011/7/3 11:27





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