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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What is the purpose for a believer to turn from sin?

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hi, if a man who has a wife and is faithfull because he doesnt want to get caught and wind up in court might just fall if on a business trip in europe. a man who loves his wife greatly will not even think of damaging their relationship.jimp love has power and fear has torment.jimp



Or conversely Jim, besides a contract, the only difference between a wife and a harlot is desire.

OJ

 2011/6/27 18:34









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Old Joe wrote : "It has NOTHING to do with our evidence of salvation, which evidence is that we believe the record God bare of his Son; nor has it anything to do with our overcoming or persevering to hold on to, or show our salvation being held."

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

If we believe Christ he will live in us by His Spirit (1 John 3:20), and the life of Christ by nature fulfills the righteousness of the law, as Romans 8:1-4 is clear about. There is no such thing as saving faith in Christ that does not produce the life of Christ within the believer demonstrating Christ to the world. Christ and sin are as opposite as darkness and light, and though a true believer may give in to sin he cannot continue in it and still partake of Christ. Truly turning from sin Is done to cleave to Christ, and by its very essence IS turning from self-love to glorify God- as self-seeking is the very essence of sin and the nature of ungodliness and unrighteousness, which God's wrath is against according to Romans 1:18.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And EVERY MAN that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:2-3)

In contrast: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (1 John 3:4-5)

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:12-15)

 2011/6/27 20:50
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 600


 Re:

Strictly confining the original question as to what should be the believer's intent to turn from sin then 'to glorify God' is the best answer. That is indeed the ideal and 'sanctified' purpose.

But then there is another fact, unless one would claim exception otherwise, in many believers their act of obedience is rather tainted with less than ideal intents
or inner behavior like fear for example, or in cases where one is correcting someone, arrogance and egotism.

During the course of discussion the concept about about sanctification was also raised, that it is somewhat a gradual process.

The other concept that came out is the act of obedience being viewed or presented as (or among the proofs) proof of regeneration.

To which I will agree is valid in light of the given scriptural texts_ to answer the question how would others will know or that you will know that you are indeed regenerated.



 2011/6/27 21:58Profile









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Quote:
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



And herein lies the rub, do you keep his commandments?

Quote:

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)



And next do you walk even as Christ walked? You OUGHT to, but do you?

An honest look should find the answer to both of those questions to be no, and that no should humble you, and turn you back upon Christ.

ETA Now if we OUGHT to walk even as He walked and see that we don't (because none actually do), that evidence becomes of no use in assurance of salvation; and likewise in the keeping of the commandments. All that we have left for evidence of our salvation is that we believe the record that God bare of His Son.


OJ

 2011/6/28 9:04









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I hope we keep his commandments. That is something each one of us must answer before God. If we don't keep his commandments we don't know Christ. The scripture could not be any plainer.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)

Merely believing the facts about Christ cannot save anyone, as even the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19). You can walk into any bar in America and find people living in open, gross sin who think they're saved because they prayed a prayer to accept Jesus. There is a difference between being exactly like Jesus (which no one is claiming to be as far as I know) and walking in the power of the Holy Spirit where sin does not have dominion over you through the power of Christ. Before I was a Christian I was covetous, lustful, hateful... Jesus delivered me. I still need to take up the cross daily and abide in him to not go back to my old life. There is a vast difference between one taking up the cross and abiding in Christ and one living after the flesh. We must abide in Christ and live after the Spirit to have an interest in Christ. There are literally hundreds of verses that show that one's life is the determining factor of salvation, as that is the very evidence Christ lives in one or not. Striving to keep the law by human effort will always result in bad fruit, whereas poverty in Spirit and utter dependence on Christ produces good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit. If this were not the case, then the warning to examine ourselves, whether we're in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5 would be pointless. Two verses later (2 Corinthians 13:7) and the entire books of 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians show Paul was speaking about how we live, not just what we believe intellectually.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. " (1 John 3:7-8)

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " (Matthew 3:10)

 2011/6/28 12:59









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Are you sinless? If you still sin you do not 'keep' the commandments. Your own heart will bear witness to this.


OJ

 2011/6/28 14:32









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Dear Friend, I read this again of late and will explain why it's hitting me, after posting it ...

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
*Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My Name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

[Matt 24:7-13]


Joe, in the time that I've been in the Church, I have never seen such a growing animosity for His Word than I've seen in the last 10 yrs. And Growing it is. I do believe that GOD's Chief Aim is to protect His Word above all else, in Heaven and on earth, in it's entirety - He even exalts it above His Name.
Over the years, I've found that if we just give someone a sermon to listen to, it's accepted well enough, but if we begin to point at His Word or quote it, it's as if all Hell breaks lose. "Many are offended, etc".
Satan hates The Word of GOD made flesh and Written more than anything we can even begin to imagine. When we have to be fearful to quote Scripture around people from churches and all, that's when we know that the days spoken of in these verses above have come. Every vile spirit will come against you if you stick to speaking only His Word, even if you paraphrase it so that it doesn't sound like you're quoting the KJV. Many times I've been tempted to lighten up from it when out there talking with others because of the anger I feel being directed at "it", even from those who like me - but The LORD said that if we're ashamed of Him - He'll be ashamed of us. He is The Word of GOD.
Why does Satan want to rob us of His Word so badly? - because it is our life in Him. Our sword of warfare against the onslaughts of the enemy. Because it's "Zoe-Life" - the Bread of Life, as Jesus is called. It's growth for us. It transforms us, cleanses us and on and on it goes but mainly because He IS The Word of GOD. But there's been a move for some time now to cause people to believe that The Word is not that necessary to know or put into our hearts and minds. That the words of men or women are more important to read or hear than His Pure Word. That 15 minutes of reading the Word but hours of the other or anything else will suffice.
Persecution is on our door-steps and it will be over the truth of His Word. If we back away or water it down now, we won't have that leg to stand on when the days become much more evil. We won't have the strength to endure or remail faithful because we weren't faithful to guard His Word. The very thing that causes persecution will be the only thing to get us through it, because His Holy Spirit only backs His Word being called, The Spirit of Truth. He's jealous over it and it is His purpose to exalt it only.
We've got to take it as it is. We have to take it in it's entirety. We can't water it down or pull verses anymore. We need to eat the Whole Lamb. The New Testament is such a tiny book in size, yet without eating the whole of it, we've rejected Christ Himself. Just read it as a child.

The cost of following Him, is to be prepared to suffer what those who GOD used to pen those Words went through, but 'with' those Words - will take what they went through as victoriously as they did, because of their Love for The Word of GOD - The Word of Life, both Christ and written. Php 2:16, 1Jn 1:1.

That's all I felt burdened to say. We need to pay the price for standing by and on the Word of GOD, although the assaults of the enemy will be the greatest that this world has ever seen and we'll lose friends, family, etc, but if we don't have that great great Love and hunger for The Word, we need to pray for it desperately now. It's a matter of life and death that Love has Everything to do with.

Thank you for listening and LORD help us all.


 2011/6/28 15:25









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Do you have to be sinless to keep the commandments though? It is a matter of whose authority we are under and therefore whose power we are under. Those who submit to Christ are led of the Spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the law. Those who walk after the flesh fulfill the desires of the flesh and mind and are at enmity with God.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:1-3)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:3-9)

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13

The Bible is 100% clear that it's possible to walk in the Spirit, fulfill the law, and not live after the flesh by Christ's power. It's also 100% clear that our salvation is determined by whether we walk after the flesh or the Spirit, as that shows whether Christ or Satan is our Master. It's not a matter of sinless perfection, but the issue is that Christ's power delivers from the power of sin. There is a depth to sin (and thus to righteousness) that is exceedingly deep which any who walk in the Spirit realize and thus know they are far from being like Jesus. That's a matter of maturity, not a matter of victory, for God has promised victory to all who submit to Christ (as the scriptures above demonstrate) by Christ's power. All can have victory now, maturity takes a lifetime walking with Christ. The key being that God never suffers temptation beyond what it's possible for us to overcome by His grace. We MUST overcome the world and cannot stay bound to sin, which is the characteristic of all who are in Adam and and live after the flesh. Who is on the throne of our lives? is the real question.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 2:2-5)

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." (1 Corinthians 10:12-14)

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14)

 2011/6/28 18:33









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Quote:
The Bible is 100% clear that it's possible to walk in the Spirit, fulfill the law, and not live after the flesh by Christ's power.



Not so. The Bible is 100% clear in its EXHORTATION to walk in the Spirit and not live after the flesh, but equally true that NONE fulfill the law. It is not Christ that enables a believer to fulfill the law it is Christ who fulfills the law, and imputes this to a believer in spite of the believer’s inability to fulfill it even with the power of the blood. That is how deep sin’s stain is.

Quote:
It's also 100% clear that our salvation is determined by whether we walk after the flesh or the Spirit, as that shows whether Christ or Satan is our Master.



Not so. Our salvation is not determined by the way we walk but by whom we trust.

FYI Do a word study on the word Master, in every instance it is used with reference to Christ it is associated with a measure of unbelief.

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It's not a matter of sinless perfection, but the issue is that Christ's power delivers from the power of sin.



And this is the worst part which makes a believer’s sin even worse than an unbeliever’s sin. This power is available and STILL we sin. Sin in light is much worse than sin in darkness.

Quote:
That's a matter of maturity, not a matter of victory, for God has promised victory to all who submit to Christ (as the scriptures above demonstrate) by Christ's power.



Victory has such a broad definition these days I can’t tell for sure what you mean by it. God has promised salvation to all who trust Christ.

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We MUST overcome the world and cannot stay bound to sin



Explain to me then precisely why you still sin?

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Who is on the throne of our lives? is the real question.



Not so. The real question is who do we trust and for what? Upon trusting, what we do about that is as varied as the stars in the sky.


OJ

 2011/6/29 1:02









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JIG

Quote:
Joe, in the time that I've been in the Church, I have never seen such a growing animosity for His Word than I've seen in the last 10 yrs.



I haven't been to church in the last 10 years so I can't verify the church scene, but in my travels I can verify something a little different, very much like the Jews of old. They took the Bible to be the infallible word of God, but then stated that each verse could have 100 different interpretations. In this they could make the Bible say exactly what they wanted it to.

What I have found lately is that there has been much emphasis on Bible verses used out of context or in plain ignorance like a blind man shooting at a gang of thieves, going off in any direction. There is even a guy that goes by the name "the reverend Elvis" who preaches much of the word of God, and I don't even recognize it because of his terrible misappropriation of it.

Basically it has come down to this, the Bible is not so bad if everyone can make it say what they want it to.

I could say much about the way this world is going to unravel, and it is not the way that most think it will, but I am just going to keep quiet about it for now.


OJ

 2011/6/29 1:19





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