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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".

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EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
BTW for future consideration, when one hits ad-hom as bad as what you have just done, they have publicly declared their own defeat.



No joke.

I've seen a lot of childish things on the board since I've been here, but the statements against JIG by far take the cake. To say shameful isn't even beginning to scratch the surface.

 2011/6/30 22:38Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

God is amazing and He never lets us down. Even in the valley of the shadow of death, His Spirit walks in us, not just with us. Truly answered prayer. Love and strength and power in Christ Jesus to you and JiG.

Love you both: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/7/1 3:14Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Ya, I never really bought this whole "one saved always saved" concept. The Bible is clear on this. There are many scriptures that supports otherwise. Of course God is merciful and wishing that none will perish but we cannot live however we want and be Saved! It's either God's way or....

Consider this text

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This scripture is deep. Once we REALLY come to know Christ there is no turning back. When you sin it does not mean you have fallen back but if you continue in your SINS and constantly reject the Holy Spirit work to change you then it is evident that you want nothing to do with God and it becomes impossible to come back to Christ cause you have ceased to allow Him in your life.

blessings!

 2011/7/14 18:28Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2004


 Re: Hebrews 6:9


Hebrews 6:4-6 are not isolated texts but ought to be read in their full context lest we miss the Spirit's teaching.

Continue and may the LORD the Spirit teach you...

Hebrews 6:9 "Yet we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved, and those which have to do with salvation, even if we are speaking thus."

"Better things (ta kreissona). “The better things” than those pictures in Heb.6:4-8." - RWP

"The apostle addresses the believing Hebrews, as "beloved"; being beloved by the Lord, not as the descendants of Abraham, but as the elect of God, and so as loved with an everlasting love; and which might be known to themselves, by its being shed abroad in their hearts, and by their being called by grace, and by their love to him, and to his people: and from hence they might conclude they should not fall away, as the apostates before spoken of; since, in consequence of being beloved by God, they were chosen in Christ unto salvation; Christ was given to die for them; they had the Spirit sent down into their hearts; they were justified, pardoned, and adopted; nor could they be separated from the love of God: and the apostle also so calls them, because they were beloved by him, not merely as being his countrymen, but as saints: and this he says to testify his affection to them; to show that what he said was not from hatred of them, or prejudice to them; and that his exhortations, cautions, and reproofs, might be better taken; and particularly that they might credit what he here says, that he was "persuaded better things" of them, than what he had said of others in Heb_6:4 even such as are expressed in Heb_6:10 he was persuaded they had the true grace of God; whereas the above mentioned persons had only gifts, when in the height of their profession; and the least degree of grace is better than the greatest gifts men can be possessed of: grace makes a man a good man, not gifts; a man may have great gifts and not be a good man; grace is useful to a man's self, gifts are chiefly useful to others; grace makes men fruitful, when gifts leave them barren in the knowledge of Christ; grace is lasting, when gifts fail, and cease and vanish away; grace will abide the fire of persecution, when gifts will not; grace is saving, gifts are not." - Gill

"What is "salvation?" In looking at salvation, we must consider it in two points of view; salvation wrought out for us, and salvation wrought out in us. Salvation was wrought out FOR the Church by the finished work of the Son of God, when he cried with expiring breath, "It is finished." The salvation of "the remnant according to the election of grace" was then completely accomplished, so that nothing could be added to, or taken from it; for "by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified;" and thus the Church stands complete in Christ, "without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing."

But there is a salvation which is wrought out IN the soul; the manifestation and application of that salvation which Jesus wrought out by his sufferings, blood-shedding, and death; and this we can only know experimentally so far as the blessed Spirit brings it into our hearts, and seals it there with holy unction and heavenly savor.

But all the people of God cannot feel sure they have this salvation as an experimental reality; doubts, fears, darkness, and temptations becloud their path; Satan hurls his fiery darts into their souls; and they are often unable to realize their saving interest in the Lord Jesus Christ and his salvation. They do not doubt that the Lord Jesus is the Savior of those who believe; they know that there is no other refuge for their guilty souls but the blood of the Lamb. They are effectually stripped from cleaving to a covenant of works; they are not running after things that cannot profit them, nor hiding their heads in lying refuges—from all these things they are effectually cut off by a work of grace on their souls.

But through the unbelief of their hearts, the deadness of their frames, the barrenness of their souls, and the various temptations they are exercised with, they fear they have not the marks of God's family, and are not able to realize their saving interest in the love and blood of the Lamb. The Apostle, therefore, speaks of "things that accompany salvation;" that is, certain marks and signs, certain clear and indubitable tokens of the work of grace on the soul. And, speaking to the Hebrews, he says for their comfort and encouragement, "We are persuaded," whatever be your doubts and fears, whatever the darkness of your mind, however exercised with sharp and severe temptations, "we are persuaded" you are in possession of those "better things," of those "things that accompany salvation;" and that this salvation is therefore eternally yours." - Philpot

 2011/7/14 23:56Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

In laymen terms what are you really saying?

 2011/7/15 14:34Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

What is necessary for forgiveness? 1 John 1:9 This falling away is not for believers, for it would be impossible to renew them again, which is what Paul is stressing, It is impossible for a believer to fall away because if they could they could not be renewed to repentance. The better things of who Paul is speaking to proves they cannot fallaway. Christ is in them and He will never leave them. What work has begun in them will be finished unto the Fathers specification for us to live in His House. Those specifications are what Christ did on the Cross, Through what Christ did, Giving Glory to God, that God might have sons in His house.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/7/15 18:00Profile
davidkeel
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Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 415
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Hello Endzone, I also have had major difficulties with sexual addictions. I didn't think I could ever be free from them and was afraid to meet God when I died.

I had to drive the sins away from me which is a teaching which is missing about present day repentance.

It's not easy at all but God will move you into a place of closeness with Him. And you will have a message of repentance from God's heart for you and not from men ....

Once you start this process God will encourage you to keep going. Don't listen to men who will be convicted by your determination. Especially don't listen to your own wicked heart and satan who will reason with you to give in. Don't give up and you will overcome.

Be single minded and cause your eye to look away from your temptations.

My own testimony is of God warning me that my time on the earth was short. I became ill and was very fearful of dying. I began to repent.

I was led by God to go out onto the hills in the middle of the night and talk with Him. My fellowship and closeness became wonderful.

After I had changed the Lord became very personal with me and if I was to ever worry about the future I always hear his still voice calling out to me.


_________________
David Keel

 2011/7/16 8:15Profile









 Re:

Thanks davidkeel for your encouraging testamony. So glad to hear that the Lord has given you the grace to walk out of this horrible crippling addiction! Thank God brother! I only want to encourage you to keep up the good work! You know what you say, some Christians may not agree with.

You hear the message a lot, "Brother you can't overcome this by yourself."

And there is another popular teaching I've heard too that goes something like this, "You can't do it in your own strength. When God is ready to deliver you, He will.".

Well I think the Lord works according to our will too. He knows our heart and whether we sincerely want out of this or not.

That's why He says, "I the Lord God search the heart and try the reigns to give to each man according...."

Brother this is just a wonderful thing to be free of. I desperately want to be free. I frightened of what the future holds. It's like somebody who has done meth for 25 years and their life is ruined. They may be able to stop by the grace of God, but what is left for the future? Those are the thoughts that go through my mind at times.

I see where you are half way between London and the beach. Looks like a very good location there.

God bless,
Endzone

 2011/7/16 10:13
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

God is willing that none will perish but all will repent and be saved. The Spirit is always working to save us. If we are not saved it is our own fault! I am just tired of people making it sound like we can continue to indulge in sin and still be saved. Not biblical!

 2011/7/19 17:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 7:7-25 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Back to the basics; Verses 7-13.--"Is the law sin?" is the next question raised. It springs logically from the statement that the passions of sins, coming out of an evil, sinful heart, were by the law and bringing forth fruit unto death. Still another "God forbid" is the answer. The law was given that we might have through that law the knowledge of sin. "I had not known sin, but by the law." I would not be conscious of lust, unless the law said, "Thou shalt not covet." The law given by a holy God is God's detective. The law forbids and the commandment at once brings out what is in the heart of man. Therefore, no blame can be put upon the law. Sin is that which must be blamed. Sin is lawlessness, rebellion against God and the law brings out that rebellion. Therefore apart from the law sin was dead, that is, dormant. But as soon as the commandment is given, the evil heart rebels against it and man is detected to be a sinner and a transgressor. Let us notice the change of the pronoun "we" to "I." Some thirty times this little word "I" is found in verses 7-25. We are brought upon the ground of personal experience; it has to be discovered and learned experimentally. The Apostle personifies this experience and speaks thus personally describing how a believer learns the lessons about the law, how the law cannot help a justified believer, and but makes of him a wretched man. It must also have been his own experience.

"For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." This is the experience of a man who is ignorant of the spirituality of the law. He thinks himself alive, but when the commandment came, its spiritual demands realized (the law is spiritual, verse 14), the false notion of being alive was detected, for sin revived and he died, which means that sin, discovered by the law, condemned him to death. "And the commandment which was unto life was found for me to be unto death." In connection with the commandment, the law, it is written, "This do, and thou shalt live." And so in this experience--he tries next to get life by the law, but he found it was unto death, for the declaration of the law is "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Ga 3:10; De 27:26). He speaks of sin, his evil nature, as one who had deceived him into all this, so that the law could manifest its power in slaying him. Verse 12 is the real answer to the question, "Is the law sin?" The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good. And because the law is holy it gives knowledge of sin and detects sin, bringing it to light in all its hideousness and then pronounces the sentence of death. One other question is asked, "Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me?" God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." It all comes back upon sin (the evil nature, the flesh). Thus by the commandment sin becomes exceeding sinful.

Verses 14-24.--But all this must be learned by experience, especially the fact "I am carnal," the knowledge that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing and that I have no power, I am powerless against indwelling sin. What person is it who describes his experience in these words? Some have applied it exclusively to the Apostle. Others state that it pictures an awakened sinner and not a converted man. The man described is born again, but is in bondage to the law and is ignorant of his deliverance in Christ. We find first the statement "we know that the law is spiritual." This is the knowledge which a true Christian possesses concerning the law. And the Christian who knows this great truth, that the law is spiritual, also has learned another truth. "I am carnal and sold under sin." Here then it is where experience begins. True Christian experience is to know our full deliverance in Christ and to walk in the Spirit; the experience of a Christian in struggling with the old nature and discovering what is that old nature, the flesh, is put before us in verses 15-24. That we have here a converted person is seen by the fact first of all, that he does not want to do evil, he wants to do good and cannot do it and therefore hates what he does. The carnal nature, the flesh, which is still in a converted person, is thus demonstrated as enslaving him, however, he is no longer a willing slave, but he hates that old thing which has the mastery over him. In hating it and condemning sin, he does the same what the law does, for it also condemns sin. In this way he consents to the law that it is good. The seventeenth verse is of much importance. "Now then it is no more I that really do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He learns the difference between himself as born again, in possession of a new nature, and the old nature. He begins to distinguish himself as in possession of a new nature that wills to do good, hating evil, and sin in him, the flesh in which dwells nothing good, but all that is evil. "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." It is a great discovery to find out by experience, that although the believer is born again, he has a nature in him which is evil, which cannot bring forth a good thing. But the will is present with him to do good, because he is born again; however, he finds not the power in himself to perform what is good. And now the conflict between the two natures is on. It brings out some important facts. "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me." He as born again, no longer loves sin; he hates it. Because he does that which he does not want to do he can truthfully say "it is no more I that do it." Furthermore he delights in the law of God after the inward man. This can never be said of an unconverted man, but only he who has a new nature can delight in the law of God. But he finds himself in helpless captivity to the law of sin which is at work in his members. He finds out that while he has a new nature to will good and to hate evil, he has no power; sin is too strong for him. And this is to teach the believer that he must get power to overcome outside of himself. All his resolutions and good wishes cannot supply the strength to do. That he is self-occupied, seeking power by what he does and tries to do, is seen from the use of the little word "I." The name of the One in whom we have deliverance, Christ, is not mentioned once. The case is clear, it is the description of the experience of a believer, who is justified, born again, in union with Christ, dead with Him, risen with Him and indwelt by the Holy Spirit; but he lacks the knowledge of this and tries by his own efforts and in his own strength, through keeping the law, to obtain holiness. Having discovered that nothing good dwells in his flesh; that the flesh is not himself, but sin in him and that, because it is too strong for him, he is powerless, the cry of despair is uttered by him. "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He has reached the end of self. He looks now for deliverance from another source, outside of himself. The answer comes at once. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." In Him there is deliverance and what that deliverance is, we shall learn from the first four verses of the eighth chapter. The two laws are mentioned once more in the last verse of this chapter. With the mind, as born again, he serves the law and the law gives him no power; in the struggle with the old nature he is enslaved by the law of sin. From; Gaebelein's Annoted Bible

There is a difference in being under the Law and being in Christ. He is the only one that can set us free, by Faith that He will do it and has done it at the Cross. He is the One that pleases God, "My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

WE have the Mind of Christ. Let us renew our minds to it.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In Christ, whom pleases God the Father: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/7/19 21:59Profile





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