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 Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".

Rev. 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These believers already had their names written in the book of life. To me that means they accepted Jesus and were saved. But, if they didn't overcome, there is the strong possibility they could have their names blotted out of the book of life. If they didn't overcome what? Maybe habitual sexual sin for starters or some other form of idolatry? I know the Lord is faithful to weed these things out of our life. But what if we just refuse to give them up? Anybody have any thoughts about this verse? Thanks.

 2011/6/22 1:29
Questor
Member



Joined: 2008/12/25
Posts: 78


 Re: He that overcometh".

Quote:
If they didn't overcome what? Maybe habitual sexual sin for starters or some other form of idolatry? I know the Lord is faithful to weed these things out of our life. But what if we just refuse to give them up? Anybody have any thoughts about this verse? Thanks.





We will not be perfect, even walking carefully in the Spirit, until we are out of this flesh.

The flesh is corrupted already, yet so long as we pursue the Face of God, continuously turning back towards Him whenever we fall away from the Spirit, whether through inattention, or deliberate choice, we are forgiven.

Beware, though, for there is a time when too many deliberate choices in the wrong direction will cause the Holy Spirit to give you over to the Adversary.

Adonai knows that not all stupid and childish rebellions we make are cause for being abandoned to sin, yet even He can lose patience with us.

When we make a practice of sinning deliberately against Him, and are no more trying to overcome that particular sin, Adonai will come to a point when He can no longer tolerate the deliberate, calloused action. It is not a matter of how many times one commits the sin, but the harm of the sin against others, and even against oneself, for your body belongs to the Lord.

Be afraid also, lest you sin, and forget to turn back to the Lord. The moment you first realize that you have sinned again, change your mind back toward Adonai, and beg His forgiveness. Soon, the attention you pay to your actions and words as the Holy Spirit makes you aware of transgressing will come to block the thought and impulse.


Romans 7:
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


 2011/6/22 2:29Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2007


 Re: Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".


Thoughts... 2 Cor. 10:5 tearing down misleading arguments and every high place [fig., arrogance] lifting itself up against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

It appears from the title of this thread that you take this verse as a threat. I conclude that you read such into the text as you comment,"there is the strong possibility they could have their names blotted out of the book of life." And to make matters worse you then add your own twist on the verse with your words,"If they didn't overcome what? Maybe habitual sexual sin for starters or some other form of idolatry?"

Rather than being a threat as you make it out to be,it is a promise to the afflicted and persecuted believers which John writes to,to encourage them to endure in their faith in their time of great temptation.

You and others who use this verse as you do,stretching its implications to support the false doctrine of Christ losing one of His sheep for whom He died, is insideous,as it is an insult to Christ(also to the Father and Sprit as they're One),and harmful to weak believers(those weak in faith or those struggling with temptation and sin).

The promise as expressed in the greek states, "I will not" —Greek, "I will not by any means." The "I will not" is followed by the affirming "I will". He first says to them what He won't do,and He next says what He will do. Praise be to God. All Glory to Him and His Faithfulness to us.

Rev 3:5 '"The one who is conquering, he shall be clothed in white garments, and under no circumstances will I be erasing his name from the scroll of life, and I will be avowing his name in front of My Father and before His messengers."

Rev 3:5 'The one overcoming, this [one] will be clothed in white garments, and by no means will I blot out his name from the Scroll of Life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

1 John 5:4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;

1 John 5:4 For every child of God overcomes the world; and the victorious principle which has overcome the world is our faith.

1 John 5:4 Because, whoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith.

1 John 5:4 Because every one having been begotten from God overcomes the world, and this is the victory having overcome the world — your faith!

this is the victory that overcometh — Greek aorist, “... that hath (already) overcome the world”: the victory (where faith is) hereby is implied as having been already obtained (1Jo_2:13; 1Jo_4:4). JFB

One commentators comments on Rev. 3:5 are as follows:

Christ promises every true Christian that He will not erase his name from the book of life, but will confess his name before the Father and before His angels. Incredibly, although the text says just the opposite, some people assume that this verse teaches that a Christian's name can be erased from the book of life. They thus foolishly turn a promise into a threat. Exodus 32:33, it is argued by some, supports the idea that God may remove someone's name from the Book of Life. In that passage the Lord tells Moses that "whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." There is no contradiction, however, between that passage and Christ's promise in Revelation 3:5. The book referred to in Exodus 32:33 is not the Book of Life described here, in Philippians 4:3, and later in Revelation (13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27). Instead, it refers to the book of the living, the record of those who are alive (cf. Ps. 69:28). The threat, then, is not eternal damnation, but physical death.

In John's day, rulers kept a register of the citizens of a city. If someone died, or committed a serious crime, their name was erased from that register. Christ, the King of heaven, promises never to erase a true Christian's name from the roll of those whose names were "written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (13:8).

On the contrary, Christ will confess every believer's name before God the Father and before His angels. He will affirm that they belong to Him. Here Christ reaffirmed the promise He made during His earthly ministry: "Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:32). The comforting truth that true Christians' salvation is eternally secure is the unmistakable teaching of Scripture. Nowhere is that truth more strongly stated than in Romans 8:28--39 - John MacArthur.

 2011/6/22 2:36Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 612


 Re: Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".

What is then the assurance of salvation? or is there really an assurance of salvation.

Does someone knows the future, how can you say that someone or you yourself is save when you are unsure of the future and that you may fall out of grace anytime sooner or later.

Do we have to grope in the dark about our salvation and say that only the future can tell.

How much sin, what sin, how long is the backsliding before someone is blotted out from the book of life_or is this question rather is moot and academic.

I'm not a believer of OSAS myself but you may have to ask these for yourself and for others, believers and non-believers or we may as well but just chasing the wind, hoping for an unsure future.


 2011/6/22 2:47Profile
Questor
Member



Joined: 2008/12/25
Posts: 78


 Re: OSAS

Quote:
How much sin, what sin, how long is the backsliding before someone is blotted out from the book of life_or is this question rather is moot and academic.




In my view, there is nothing moot about salvation. Yeshua died horribly that we might choose to be righteous in Him.

We cannot do that by ceaselessly turning our back on Him, yet sin is automatically in us. We can no more stop sinning, than we can stop breathing and remain alive. Our righteousness is attributed to us by Christ's actions, not our own.

Yet, we must set our faces towards Yeshua, and try with all our strength to co-operate with the Holy Spirit, Who does the changes in us towards a holy life and a new personhood. When we become aware of having sinned, we must repent, and seek forgiveness. As the Spirit grows within us we will sin less, and delight more in Adonai, and try ever harder to keep from straying off the path.

But Yeshua says in Revelation over and over that we must finish our course, despite the opposition we attract by walking in the Light. This does not mean reaching perfection of thought or action, but continuing to try to, even to the point of death, as an on going action, until we are stopped by force.

Salvation in Yeshua is a gift that we cannot deserve ... ever! We can only try to be as much like our Lord as we can, for as long as we are alive, knowing our weakness, and delighting in the strength of the Spirit.


Revelation 3
5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 2011/6/22 3:07Profile
looserchapel
Member



Joined: 2011/2/23
Posts: 58
Brest, France

 Re:

Yet another pointless debate on Calv/Arm...

That said, I begin to grasp the fundamental difference between Calvinistic way of thinking and Non-Calvinistic one

- The calvinists will take the "bright side" of the text and will acknowledge that those who are "begotten" by God will overcome (because of their faith) which IS biblical, they are right
=> They deliberately focus on the road (Jesus) and the destination (Jesus), they give no provision to the flesh, and they are right...

- The non-calvinists will rather consider the countless exhortations Jesus made, whether it be explicit or implied, (like John 15, Rev 3, Demas, James 5, 1 Tim 6, 2 Tim 4, etc.) on the danger AND the reality of "losing" salvation, and they are right too
=> They have their attention on the sign posts, they know that the flesh CANNOT please God and is just looking for any occasion to go back to it former habits and thus to wordly living, they acknowledge that Paul's command to "die to self" was not in vain, and they are right too...

As for me, I will now sound very untheologic but By the grace of God I will look on the road (from Jesus to Jesus, author and finisher of our faith) AND on the sign posts (those examples for us NOT to follow 1 Cor 10, especially verse 6 and 10). Practically, when I chat with ultra-calvinists (not automatically hyper) I will sound very arminian, on the other side, when I talk with an ultra-arminian who is struggling with his eternal INsecurity, I would throw some verses on God holding us in His hands...

For me then, the key is the BALANCE! the BALANCE! and now in closing, if you still want to keep on debating, answer the following questions:

- How God can be Love and Holiness??? (take a verse at random, in Isaiah for instance where God abruptly stopped threatening Israel and begins to stretch out His hands with love)
=>That's absolute nonsense, yet that's what it is, and I have no problem accepting these truths since they are held (by God btw) IN BALANCE

- "Answer God all you theologians reasoning out my theology. Just answer God. Are you pure in heart?" - Keith Daniel

Blessings


_________________
Lalaina

 2011/6/22 3:44Profile
gazzer
Member



Joined: 2011/4/30
Posts: 99


 Re:

this is a good examlple of some who will be saved ,,but are still warned to stay in the boat

this is an anaoligy of those who are the lords sheep
my sheep hear my voice and they follow me ,and i know them
and i give them eturnal life and thay shal not perish

he who is born of god ,does not sin ,because gods seed is in him and he can not sin

he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one can not touch him

these are promises

in the same way the angle of the lord promises that not one in the ship will be lost

but as with those who are saved god uses warning to keep those who are young ,in the ship

But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed. 23 Last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me 24 and said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.’ 25 So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me. 26 Nevertheless, we must run aground on some island.”

The Shipwreck
27 On the fourteenth night we were still being driven across the Adriatic[c] Sea, when about midnight the sailors sensed they were approaching land. 28 They took soundings and found that the water was a hundred and twenty feet[d] deep. A short time later they took soundings again and found it was ninety feet[e] deep. 29 Fearing that we would be dashed against the rocks, they dropped four anchors from the stern and prayed for daylight. 30 In an attempt to escape from the ship, the sailors let the lifeboat down into the sea, pretending they were going to lower some anchors from the bow. 31 Then Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 So the soldiers cut the ropes that held the lifeboat and let it drift away

unless you endure till the end you will nt be saved

but this is the will of god ,that all that the father gives me i shall lose none

my sheep hear my voice and thay follow me

and i give tto them eturnal life,and they shal never perish

those in the boat are under the protection as those who are truly born again ,, that same principle is obvious

the men in the ship are a parrable decribing us who are saved ,,,but some of us need to be warned not to leave the boat , tho god still noes his sheep and protetes his sheep ,

for he is our shepard

 2011/6/22 5:21Profile
gazzer
Member



Joined: 2011/4/30
Posts: 99


 Re:

if we can understand each other more then this conversation is worth it

weasly loved whitfield

weasly the chapion arminian ,told those who herd that we should all keep close to the doctrines of whifield ,who was a calvinist
it brings tears to my ,i wish ,that we all could say that to one another
let stick close to one anothers doctrines
the coin has two sides

 2011/6/22 5:30Profile









 Re:

Questor I liked your response. I apologize for not getting back to this thread. I want to be more forthcoming now. I have had an ongoing sexual addiction in my life for 30 years. About a year ago the Lord brought me into severe judgment for this sin. The Holy Spirit moved away from me. I lost the close fellowship with the Lord and His tender touch of the Holy Spirit. He does not speak to me anymore. I am more affliced by the demonic. For this reason I think at times I tend to doubt my salvation. But, the Lord has spoken to me in a very fiant voice once, and He said that I am still His child and I am among the redeemed of the Lord. Will the Holy Spirit ever come back and restore? I don't know. But you know when the Lord brought me into judgment for this sin? I began to think in my mind that I might just go to the end with this sin and die with it. The point at which I stopped trying to resist it and began to entertain the idea that I might just go to my grave with it (because it was pleasurable for a short while), it wasn't too long after that that the Lord brought me into judgment and His Holy Spirit moved away from me.

But I do agree that if salvation depended on us, we wouldn't have a chance. But I think there is one example where the Bible speaks about one losing their status of being saved. This is the example where the unfaithful servant just says, "Hey let's party down while the master is gone". That is a very dangerous position to abopt.

 2011/6/23 18:52









 Re:

savannah, thank you for your response, but it was just too long for me to absorb. Thanks.

 2011/6/23 18:53





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