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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him

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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:
This clearly states that this is the first resurrection.




Of course this is the first resurrection because the second resurrection is for all the unrighteous that refused to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

The bible says blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. Those who have part in the first resurrection the second death will have no power because they have eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:6-16 (KJV) 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Notice what it says in Rev 19.6-16 about the marriage of the Lamb and how she (the lambs wife) is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Then look at verse 11 and see heaven is opened, and behold a white horse and notice who is sitting on that white horse and notice his eyes as a flame of fire and notice how great he is and why he is coming to the earth. Notice also that there are armies on white horses following him. Praise God: notice their clothing, notice that they are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Who are they brother, look at verse 8 and I will shout all by myself, hallelujah and praise the Lord it is His saints. Praise God brother I am looking to be in that number of those armies in chapter 19 following my Lord and Savior. When you get to chapter 20 those who also have part in the first resurrection are those who were saved out of the great tribulation. Notice in 20:4 it says “and they lived” to also reign with Christ because they didn’t receive the mark of the beast. The rest of the dead didn’t get to live and reign with Christ because they received the mark. The marriage of the Lamb has already taken place in chapter 19 and the bride is seen riding on white horses following the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice also brother it says nothing about those dead in chapter 20 living to also to reign with Christ as having been caught up to meet him in the air and neither does it mention those who never died as being change in a moment and caught up to meet him in the air. The true blood bought church who are faithful will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air before Rev, 20 because they are seen in chapter 19.

Blessings to you

 2011/6/21 13:21Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3710
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 Re:

rbanks wrote, Quote: """Notice what it says in Rev 19.6-16 about the marriage of the Lamb and how she (the lambs wife) is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Then look at verse 11 and see heaven is opened, and behold a white horse and notice who is sitting on that white horse and notice his eyes as a flame of fire and notice how great he is and why he is coming to the earth. Notice also that there are armies on white horses following him. Praise God: notice their clothing, notice that they are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Who are they brother, look at verse 8 and I will shout all by myself, hallelujah and praise the Lord it is His saints. Praise God brother I am looking to be in that number of those armies in chapter 19 following my Lord and Savior. When you get to chapter 20 those who also have part in the first resurrection are those who were saved out of the great tribulation. Notice in 20:4 it says “and they lived” to also reign with Christ because they didn’t receive the mark of the beast. The rest of the dead didn’t get to live and reign with Christ because they received the mark. The marriage of the Lamb has already taken place in chapter 19 and the bride is seen riding on white horses following the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice also brother it says nothing about those dead in chapter 20 living to also to reign with Christ as having been caught up to meet him in the air and neither does it mention those who never died as being change in a moment and caught up to meet him in the air. The true blood bought church who are faithful will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air before Rev, 20 because they are seen in chapter 19.

Blessings to you"""

Amen, Therefore comfort each other with these words 1 Thess4:17&18.

What comfort in Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/6/21 15:42Profile









 Re:

Baruch Adonai Eloah enu Melki Olam!



budgie and davidc,

Thank you for what you have initiated in this thread. You have given plenty of food for thought as you can well see all the responses and the ensuing interactions.

God Bless you both.




Though reading along will continue, response (on this one) will be refrained from for the time being.Right now, there are too many questions here about the deeper meaning of the mystery of iniquity and the issues surrounding this.
(it might add confusion to this discussion.





Lord willing, more questions and ideas from here will arrive eventually, as even now they are being written down while this thread progresses.

It's desired that the majority of respondents think through what they have written in relation to other scriptures--possibly only seemingly--contradictory to what they are saying.

Particularily rbanks:
Does your view agree with or conflict with the whole counsel of God??? Look at the context of Rev. 12 to this books end in relation to the 100+ OT prophecies as context for this revelation of Jesus Christ.

Because ChristInYou has become so adamant regarding trinity, it's desired this issue become settled, so a thread over this issue, starting with the response to him, has been initiated called "Is God really 3 Persons?"

It's because this doctrine of Trinity detracts from the doctrine of Christ Jesus in saying the Holy Spirit is (something other than--->in the word) Anti-christ that there is more concern over this issue than the order of events at the end of days.
------------------------------------------------------------



. . .and 'Phillip':

[Twinity---> as in two-united, or would you prefer dunity, or dinity, or etc?
Does trinity mean they tri(ed) to unite as one godhead or does tri mean three?
Call it post-modern wordplay if you will because what we decide to call godhead matters little is not sacred unless of course it is God's very Word.]

Yes, twin does take away from everything you stated in your last paragraph and i sincerely apologize for unintentionally propogating this misgnomer: i'm sorry.

You wrote in your third paragraph:
"About 2 Thess, Do we really believe that the timing of the end times is up to Satan, man, Nations or any thing else that puts itself above God. Sounds like giving satan the credit for Gods timing and Christs Cross. "The unpardonable sin"?"

One question:
Since God allowed Judas (Kurioth) to betray His Son, is He put above God? Is this giving satan credit for God's timing and Christ's cross?



Ve Gedulah Shalom!

Agapeo,
gregg

 2011/6/22 10:46
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: 2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him

Quote:
by Christinyou
When you get to chapter 20 those who also have part in the first resurrection are those who were saved out of the great tribulation. Notice in 20:4 it says “and they lived” to also reign with Christ because they didn’t receive the mark of the beast.



I'm sorry but the Word doesn't expressly state that those who have a part in the first resurrection were saved out of the great tribulation - anywhere in Rev 20 (or in the Bible). In verse 4, it states:

*** And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them

1. That were "beheaded" for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God
2. Those who had NOT worshipped the beast, neither his image
3. Neither who had received "his" mark on their foreheads or hands.

(These) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ***

To me, being beheaded in verse 4 means - ALL those who who loved not their lives unto death (throughout the ages) who were martyred.

We see that Scripture here does not mention "the great tribulation," maybe it's just me but I humbly submit that man has made a doctrine out of it to support what HE BELIEVES and not what the Scripture says. Please know that this topic is my understanding of the Scriptures and subjective, you are free to agree or disagree!!

God bless you,
Lisa

PS: Edited for clarity (hopefully!!)


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Lisa

 2011/6/22 12:51Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
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 Re: 2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him

Quote:
by rbanks
Of course this is the first resurrection because the second resurrection is for all the unrighteous that refused to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.


You know I love ya, brother, in Christ; but where does it say this in Scripture?!!

I submit (humbly) to you brother that scripture does not expressly state this. My understanding (it's subjective, I know so anyone is free to disagree), is that the second resurrection and the second death are NOT synonymous.

Here is the order of the second resurrection (Rev 20.12):
1. The dead - great and small stand before the throne
2. The book(S) are opened.
3. The book of Life is opened.
4. The dead are judged according to what was recorded in the books
5. The dead come from every 4 corners (Rev 20.13)
6. Any name NOT found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe (from the Scriptures) that the first resurrection are those who walked perfect before the Lord, Old Testament and New; these have no fear of the second death because they have already been judged. Their reward is that they will rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 years and after.

The second resurrection are those who did not walk perfectly before the Lord, did not overcome in their life (even with the Overcomer inside them), they will not rule and reign with Christ BUT THEY will be judged according to what is written in the books. AND those whose names are not found written in the book of Life, they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Why do I go against the grain of dogma and believe this?

1. It does not make sense (logical) to pull out the book of life at the second resurrection judgment if there is no one in it.
A. Which begs the question: Why isn't the book of life pulled out at the first resurrection? (I ask this because most Christians believe that every born-again person is going in the first resurrection, correct?)

2. If every person that going to hell is damned then logically they have no good works - zip, nada, nothing that requires ANY book to be pulled out for them.

3. The verse Rev 20.15 states "whosoever is not found in the book of life," and this verse has direct implication that there WILL BE those who are found "IN" the book of life.

Finally, brethen, I humbly add sadly that we, Christians, have a VESTED INTEREST in believing that each of us are going in the first resurrection, so how could God possibly dole out anything less to those ruling and reigning with Him!! (Matthew 20:16, Mark 9:35, Luke 12.48)

We need to strive to enter in at the strait gate and strive to overcome to be in the first resurrection. If we have the Overcomer in us (speaking for myself as well), and we do not overcome; whose fault is that? It's definitely not the Holy Spirit's; it would be ours for not believing that all things are possible to those who believe!

These are my (subjective) short quick reasons for believing that the second resurrection and the second death are NOT synonymous.

God bless us all as we reason together, my friend!
Sister Lisa

(Edited a few words for clarity)


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Lisa

 2011/6/22 12:53Profile
sarahsdream
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 Re:

Mat 13:30 LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Same at verse below)

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the END OF THE WORLD: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Looks like we all grow up until the end of the world and then the Lord comes and separates the wheat from the tares.

After the tribulation He will gather His elect and we will see Him coming in the clouds.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


He only comes once... at The End!

With love,
Sarah

 2011/6/22 13:35Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:
Here is the order of the second resurrection (Rev 20.12): 1. The dead - great and small stand before the throne 2. The book(S) are opened. 3. The book of Life is opened. 4. The dead are judged according to what was recorded in the books 5. The dead come from every 4 corners (Rev 20.13) 6. Any name NOT found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire. I believe (from the Scriptures) that the first resurrection are those who walked perfect before the Lord, Old Testament and New; these have no fear of the second death because they have already been judged. Their reward is that they will rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 years and after. The second resurrection are those who did not walk perfectly before the Lord, did not overcome in their life (even with the Overcomer inside them), they will not rule and reign with Christ BUT THEY will be judged according to what is written in the books. AND those whose names are not found written in the book of Life, they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.




Dear Lysa,

This is amazing because your understanding is similar to my understanding in believing that there are overcomers who will rule and reign with Him as well as there will be others who didn’t overcome all things but will still be saved from eternal damnation.

This is also similar to the belief that there will be a bride within the Church who are considered to be the overcomers.

I do believe that the first resurrection will be all the truly saved and the last resurrection will be all the damned. I don’t believe any saved people will be judged at the white throne judgment because all the saved will be at the judgment seat of Christ.

Lets look at Revelation 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Notice who is sitting on the throne here and notice from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and that there was found no place for them

Looking at Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Notice the dead are the rest of the dead from verse 5 because the dead that are in Christ are already raised from the dead to live having eternal life because the second death has no power over them.

Notice also John 5:28-29 (KJV) 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This shows two separate resurrections, one of the just and one of the wicked. In vs, 12 again they were to stand before God and the books are opened because God is just and He always does what is right He is giving them their just due because they did not except the righteousness he offered them through his Son Jesus. The books record all their works not being good enough and all there sins not being atoned for nor able to be erased. The book of life has to be there to show them that there name was not there because it could only be there by the blood of the lamb. There is no place for them in God’s kingdom because it is reserved only for those in the Lambs book of Life and because there was no place for them they were cast in the Lake of Fire. Now John said that at this great white throne in verse 11 that all the dead that stood before it that there was no place for them and after the judgment they were all cast into the lake of Fire.

I will stop for now. God Bless you my sister in the Lord.

 2011/6/22 15:11Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


rbanks!!! This is truly interesting but I have to go to jail and do not have time to formulate a response but I will get back with you brother sometime tonight!!

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2011/6/22 16:51Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Rbanks - edited


Brother Banks,

This is wild that we believe almost the same thing but come to such contrasting views about it!! LOL This is good, let's get started!!!

Quote:
Lets look at Revelation 20:11

Notice who is sitting on the throne here and notice from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and that there was found no place for them


I looked at this verse and went to the ESV and it was a bit more clearer, "From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them." Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are reading but it does not talk about people fleeing away, and even in the KJV, "THEM" seems to be the earth and sky (maybe getting ready for judgement?).

Quote:
Looking at Revelation 20:12

Notice the dead are the rest of the dead from verse 5 because the dead that are in Christ are already raised from the dead to live having eternal life because the second death has no power over them.


I do agree with you that these are the rest of the dead from verse 5!! But going back to verse four... it shows the qualifiers for who is going in the first resurrection, and being "in Christ," sadly is not one of them. (Edit: Let me clarify that all those among the qualifiers in verse 4 are obviously 'in Christ;' but the Word does not state that all those 'in Christ' (down through the ages) are going in the first resurrection. Whew, I hope I adverted a heretic hunt!!)

Quote:
Notice also John 5:28-29
This shows two separate resurrections, one of the just and one of the wicked. In vs, 12 again they were to stand before God and the books are opened because God is just and He always does what is right He is giving them their just due because they did not except the righteousness he offered them through his Son Jesus. The books record all their works not being good enough and all there sins not being atoned for nor able to be erased. The book of life has to be there to show them that there name was not there because it could only be there by the blood of the lamb. There is no place for them in God’s kingdom because it is reserved only for those in the Lambs book of Life and because there was no place for them they were cast in the Lake of Fire. Now John said that at this great white throne in verse 11 that all the dead that stood before it that there was no place for them and after the judgment they were all cast into the lake of Fire.


In John 5.29, Jesus was explaining the two things that would happen but He did not say they were two different resurrections, did He? Man's mind have just ASSUMED and put words in His mouth that it was two different resurrections. Here is what He says:

1. For an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out
2. those who have done good to the resurrection of life AND those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Yes, if you choose to believe that they are two separate resurrections, I can see why you are saying what you are saying!

God bless you my friend!!
Lisa


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Lisa

 2011/6/23 7:51Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Dear Lysa,

Also notice Revelation 20:6-10 (NKJV) 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice Satan is released from his prison after a thousand years and will go out to deceive the nations. This also shows that those who were deceived that fire came down from heaven and devoured them. The devil was cast into the Lake of Fire and those that were deceived will be cast into the Lake of Fire after the great white throne judgment.

Notice it says in Revelation 20:14 (NKJV) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This is clear that the last judgment is reserved only for death and hell (Hades) because it is the second death for those who were never redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The last judgment is the great white throne and I don’t see any indication in scripture that any saints will be there.

I believe that according to the bible that all saints must be somewhat of an overcomer because it says in 1 John 5:4 (NKJV) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

And also in Revelation 21:7-8 (NKJV) 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I can’t find anywhere in scripture that the rest of the dead would also include anyone born of God because it says death and hell was cast into the lake of Fire. This also includes all those deceived by Satan after the 1000 year reign but it never mentions anyone living in the last judgment and where they go because we know anyone having not the Spirit of Christ is none of His and all those in Christ have His life in them.

Maybe you can give me some scripture or some other inkling in the passages besides the book of Life because the only thing I see concerning the Book of Life in this passage is that there names were not there. God is just and if there names had of been in the Book of Life they wouldn’t be there because they would have been in the first resurrection.


Blessings to you sister.
rbanks

 2011/6/23 8:51Profile





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