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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Storms Expose the Character of Man

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Old_Joe,

Quote:

This statement above declares a fundamental lack of understanding of the book of Job, and is about as twisted an interpretation of scripture as I have seen yet. I suggest you read the rest of the chapter esp v22-29, 34-35.



Before you go accusing me of "a fundamental lack of understanding of the Book of Job," consider the first thing that the Lord said to Job during His confrontation:

"1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 WHO IS THIS THAT DARKENETH COUNSEL BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?"

Job 38:1-2

It seems that God is confronting Job for listening to his friends. This is reflected a few chapters later:

"7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: FOR YE HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF ME THE THING THAT IS RIGHT, AS MY SERVANT JOB HATH.

8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

Job 41:7-8

Quote:

Job was not rebuked for listening to his friends, he was rebuked for defending his own righteousness, and believing he should be exempt from trouble from God. This is what Job 42:1-6 reveals.



It seems that you are under the belief that God was the one who brought harm upon Job, his family and his belongings. That is just NOT the case. Consider Job 1:12 and Job 2:

Job 1:12 - "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

Job 2:6 - "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

Satan came to God and argued that the reason that Job serves God is because of the hedge of protection that Job had from the Lord (Job 1:9-11 and Job 2:4-5). So, the Lord removed that hedge of protection and allowed Satan to afflict Job.

Again, this affliction did NOT come from the Lord -- except in the sense that God allowed Satan to act against the man, his family and his belongings. This isn't what people are accusing God of. They are pointing the finger at the very behavior and character of God -- like Job's friends -- and attempting to ascertain the reasons that Job (or Joplin) was afflicted BY GOD. I urge you to review the words that Job's friends spoke...and notice how they are similar to the accusations about the tornado in Joplin.

This is why I urge caution.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/3 14:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Joe,

Quote:

Yes, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Zephaniah, John, Paul and a bunch of others.



Would you care to provide examples of where God poured out His wrath upon HIS OWN PEOPLE? I would especially like to see examples under this New Covenant that God made with us -- especially since the Word says that God has been "storing up" His wrath (Romans 2:5).

Nahum 1:2 - "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath FOR HIS ENEMIES."


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/3 14:59Profile









 Reactions to storms -


We must read the whole of Job 38. I posted it on the previous page and I was certain to end my post with "GOD allows".

Speaking of "Saints dying" - I've yet to reconcile how David Wilkerson died, yet I have to know that GOD also "allowed it" because one of my closest sister-friends had a car headed right for her and had the miracle of miracles happen as she saw the car go right through hers. Yes, that was a miracle that may be hard for some to believe, yet it did happen. GOD spared her and her son.
GOD is Good and nothing can take away from that - no matter how we or unsaved people die. Taking Saints home or drawing people unto Himself or closer to Himself is All that He's concerned with.

Did any Saints die in Japan, or Haiti, or in any other weather or earthquake disasters in any other countries and generations? I'm sure they have, but because this disaster was in the our own country, the view changes I've noticed, on every forum I've viewed. To die is Gain, no matter How we are Blessed to go Home to be with Him, Forever-Safe.

But that's the United States for you. We have always thought we were the exception or special somehow.
I've discussed this with others and they've noticed it as well. When it's Haiti, it's one thing but, Oh my, when something happens to US then it's taken so much differently.
Most have forgotten about Haiti, Burma, Pakistan and other nations who are suffering so terribly more than we are.

[RDG, 'these' Are "reactions" to this storm :]


Brother, GOD allows these things and that is backed by the Word of GOD. Joe and I have posted quite a bit of Scripture - how could anyone say that GOD is not in control, when to "allow or not allow" is still GOD in control.

The U.S. is not exempt or more special than any other country - that's for sure. In fact - we're more guilty than any other nation on earth. We were the world's super-power and claimed to be a Christian Nation.
If we begin to see incredible earthquakes in the United States, what then? What will our reaction be? Any different than with tornados?

GOD is omniscient - to take a Saint Home is a GOD-send for that Saint. Jim Elliot didn't die a sweet death neither and none of us are guaranteed to die easy deaths - but regardless of how we die - we're instantly in the Presence of The LORD Forever.
As I said on the previous page - if my children were killed in a tornado - I'd pray take it as Job did.

 2011/6/3 15:23









 Re:

Chris

You urge caution simply because you do not know. It is faith that allows us to know.

More later...

OJ

 2011/6/3 15:44
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Reactions to storms -

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:

Speaking of "Saints dying" - I've yet to reconcile how David Wilkerson died, yet I have to know that GOD also "allowed it" because one of my closest sister-friends had a car headed right for her and had the miracle of miracles happen as she saw the car go right through hers. Yes, that was a miracle that may be hard for some to believe, yet it did happen. GOD spared her and her son.
GOD is Good and nothing can take away from that - no matter how we or unsaved people die. Taking Saints home or drawing people unto Himself or closer to Himself is All that He's concerned with.



There is a very big difference between "God allowing" a tragedy or set of events to occur (particularly by NOT intervening) and pointing the finger at the character of God and saying that He CAUSED those things by divine intervention. Yet, in the previous Joplin thread, someone actually accused God of killing David Wilkerson (and even raised the possibility that God killed him because he was a "lawbreaker"). That is quite an accusation to make -- but on nearly the same level as saying that God actively created a tornado apart from the ordered patterns of this world with the specific intent to destroy and town and kill certain residents.

Quote:

Brother, GOD allows these things and that is backed by the Word of GOD. Joe and I have posted quite a bit of Scripture - how could anyone say that GOD is not in control, when to "allow or not allow" is still GOD in control.



No one is arguing whether or not God is "in control" in a larger sense. He is certainly not "in control" in a sense of causing sin...or authoring/motivating a sinful nature. However, God is "in control" in a sense that He set order to this world. He is "in control" of a volcano on one of the moons of Jupiter (that can be observed via a mountain-based telescope) as much as He is in control of whether or not electricity will power the monitor that you are looking at. However, it would be a bit disconcerting to blame whether or not your computer monitor works on an act or judgment of God.

You see, the insinuation that "God is in control" can be used to say that God actively killed a young missionary like Jim Elliot, an older preacher like David Wilkerson or an old woman who dies at the age of 115 in her bed. If all things were in "God's control" (in a sense that He actively causes all things), then why would Jesus have ever healed the sick while He walked this Earth? The Word says that He went about healing the sick and all who were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL.

It is one thing to say that sickness COMES FROM GOD and another thing to say that sickness can be USED BY GOD. Likewise, it is one thing to imply that there are no such things as an "order of nature" or "weather patterns" and that God intervenes in such things by simply halting what He was already plotting.

Quote:

The U.S. is not exempt or more special than any other country - that's for sure. In fact - we're more guilty than any other nation on earth. We were the world's super-power and claimed to be a Christian Nation.
If we begin to see incredible earthquakes in the United States, what then? What will our reaction be? Any different than with tornados?



I haven't seen anyone write comments for which this comment would pertain. It certainly wasn't anything that I have implied. As a person who has traveled abroad for missionary work, I wouldn't suggest that America is somehow immune to natural disasters. Moreover, it seems that the opposite is often implied here on SermonIndex by a small group of people -- that God is somehow actively pouring out "special judgment" upon this nation for sin (while many regions of the world -- like Islamic nations continue unscathed).


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/3 15:51Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Ok you guys win argue about Joplin all
You want. I'm done....how sad this all is



 2011/6/3 15:53Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Old_Joe,

Quote:

Chris

You urge caution simply because you do not know. It is faith that allows us to know.



I will be the first to admit the limits of my own understanding -- or venturing into causes or accusations about subjects that are "too wonderful" for my own limited mind.

However, I am urging caution because there are others who seem to consistently speak of things as if they know -- without raising any possibility of being wrong in the least. Now, if something is exceedingly clear from Scripture, we can stake that claim as being beyond all doubt.

This is NOT one of those situations.

Some individuals are literally pointing the finger at God for the deaths and destruction due to one tornado (out of an average of 1,200 per year in this country) and insinuating an underlying motivation of judgment and wrath. They aren't saying that it was the judgment of God to not intervene -- but that it was God who actively created the tornado with the purpose of killing and destroying (even upon His own people).

I would appreciate if we can avoid insinuations about one another in these sort of discussions. It bothered me that you previously claimed that I was "twisting Scriptures" -- as if I am motivated by something other than the Truth found only in Christ Jesus. We can disagree or have differences of opinions -- but we don't have to resort to personal implications that aren't helpful or respectful in such discussions.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/3 16:01Profile









 Re:

This is exceedingly clear.

OJ

 2011/6/3 16:04









 Re:

Thread Title: "Storms Expose the Character of Man"

Rainydaygirl ~

The character of man is being displayed right here on this thread and I see nothing "sad" about them/us discussing how all of this fits into Scripture and I do not see anyone "arguing".


Were we to just leave this thread for discussing how terrible unsaved people are in their behavior?
That would be a rather self-righteous discussion, to say the least.
Of course unsaved people act like unsaved people .... but what about "Christian Con-artists"? I have stories about them and that surely should concern us more than how unsaved people behave and not even All the unsaved people behaved wrongly during this disaster - from the stories I've read, the bad-guys were in the minority.
Many, many reports on how many of them pulled together and went out of their way to help others.
I could post those if anyone wants to hear that.
I'm sure there were some "Christians" that only took care of as well and the unsaved made them look rather selfish in comparison.

Now That is "sad" and we saw that with 9/11 - so I'm not even sure what this thread is Really about. Oh yes, it also included muscles being pulled away from the bones - so I suppose we've really drifted off topic from that as well.

_________________________________________________

Chris, all that both of my posts are saying and doesn't need anything more added to it is, that "GOD ALLOWS" these things and I posted enough Scripture and so did Joe.
Scripture ends all "arguments".

Don't want to 'upset' anyone else.

GOD Bless Brother!



 2011/6/3 16:19
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:

Chris, all that both of my posts are saying and doesn't need anything more added to it is, that "GOD ALLOWS" these things and I posted enough Scripture and so did Joe.
Scripture ends all "arguments".



Please understand that all of the words within these posts aren't directed expressly to you. I do think that I know where you are trying to convey, but it differs somewhat from what others are saying.

Most of us have acknowledged from the get-go that "God allows" things -- including tragedies -- and uses such things to draw men closer to Himself. But this isn't being painted as a "tragedy" by some. Some are literally pointing the finger at God and saying that God specifically CREATED this tornado (apart from the natural order to this world and its weather) in order to KILL certain people and DESTROY 3/4 of the town as an act of "judgment" upon Joplin and/or the U.S.

In the other Joplin thread, someone literally implied (in so many words) that God killed David Wilkerson because of "lawlessness." That is a hefty accusation to make about the character, nature, motives and actions of the Living God.

The caution that I urge is because of the seriousness of such allegations, insinuations and implications of what some might think that they "know" from Scripture. Historically, many people, groups, denominations and sects derive many different "doctrines" from Scripture that are based upon what they "know" but aren't widely agreed upon by the Body of Christ. With such disagreements, should we assume that some believer is purposely "twisting" Scripture to meet some preconceived notion?

Yet, this is an implication that troubles me. Some people are so "certain" of the things that they "know" from Scripture that they are confident enough to say such things. Yes, the Scriptures are clear -- but our lens is sometimes skewed by the "glass darkly" on this side of Eternity. As such, we sometimes fail to make a distinction between a personal conclusion about Scripture and what Scripture is actually saying. Or, like Job, we listen to the "wisdom" of other friends who influence our thoughts on certain matters and then we make utterances and finite conclusions about things "too wonderful" for us.

Many people are reading these forums that we may never know and it would be dreadful to find that -- not only did we utter something that wasn't entirely true about the character of God -- but that others actually listened, believed it and our incorrect words were repeated as part of a cycle.

I do apologize if I offend you or anyone else by urging caution in this matter. The Lord bless you as well.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/3 17:01Profile





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