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iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

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Ian Smith

 2011/6/3 1:22Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Just to share one of those alternative voices to Mr. MacArthur, I give you Don Rogers, former missionary to the Philippines and prominent voice on Spiritual Warfare. From his the FAQs section on his website www.sw-mins.org:

Quote:
TOPIC ONE: Can Christians have demonic problems?

ANSWER:

I know that there are a lot of Christians that believe this is impossible. They believe if this were possible it would undermine the the work of Christ at the cross. Another argument is also posed. "How can the light dwell with darkness?"

First of all, if God is permitting the Christian to experience demonic problems, there is a reason; there is probably sin that needs to be addressed. God often used Israel's enemies to chastise them. Paul was speaking to Christians in Eph. 4:26-27 when he said,

"Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." (NIV)

The Greek word for foothold means a place of influence in one's life. Sin provides the enemy with an opportunity, even with Christians, if they persist in sin.

The argument of the light not being able to dwell with darkness is based on logic, not God's Word. God is present everywhere and cannot be limited by the darkness of this world. If that were the case, the Holy Spirit would not be able to dwell and work in a world full of sin and evil forces.

On the other hand, the apostle Paul indicates that Christians can open themselves up to evil spirits if they do not adhere to God's word and obey it. He said to believers in 2 Corinthians 11:3-5,

"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (NIV)

What Paul is saying here is that believers can receive into their lives another spirit in the same way they received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit entered when they believed the truth about Jesus Christ. An evil spirit can enter when you believe the lies of the enemy in the form of another gospel. In fact, when any sin is practiced by a believer, there is the potential that God may permit an evil spirit to enter in to establish a foothold as an agent of chastisement. The Christian becomes demonized, not demon possessed. Unfortunately, Christians are not pursuing holy living, because they are enjoying too much of the world in their lives. They ignore the convicting prods of the Holy Spirit because of the enticements of the flesh.


And Christians put up with the oppression because they are blinded by their sin and lack discernment. Paul could not have made it much clearer for us.



and

Quote:
TOPIC TWO: I believe it is possible for Christians to be harassed by demons, but how is it possible for demons to invade a believer's body?

ANSWER:

This is somewhat related to the first question. I think the best way to understand what is happening is to look at Romans 8:22-23.

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (NIV)

The reason we can be physically vulnerable to demonic activity is because our physical bodies still await redemption. That is why disease can enter our bodies and even bring death to us. If we understand that the sovereign God can do whatever He pleases, even to using the enemy's activities for His purposes, then we will not have such difficulty with this issue.

And remember that God has given a couple of great promises to stand on.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." - 1 Cor. 10:13 (NIV)

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28 (NIV)



_________________
Ian Smith

 2011/6/3 1:22Profile









 Re: The Opposing View Point

I gave this testimony before that I attended an AoG Bible College over 30 yrs ago and all of our Professors were former-retired Missionaries and they taught us Doctrine from the Greek back then and the stand of the AoG back then was and remains - that a Truly born-again Christian cannot be "inhabited" by demons.

I'm a member now of the conservative branch of the Presbyterians-PCA who have one of the greatest Missionary Works I've ever witnessed. My Church of only about 350 or so members support 50 missionary families alone.
They do not teach that Christians can be inhabited by demons.

Oppressed - yes. Possessed - no.

There's been a lot of twisting of Scriptures in some of these reply posts but I've posted enough on this topic in the last two years to not care much anymore what people 'choose' to believe. Heresy means 'choice' and many of those who hold to this teaching have based their beliefs on "experiences" rather than Scripture alone.

Many of those who are bringing this forward are now those who believe in OSAS. They claim that the people who are possessed are "saved".

A friend of ours invited a woman from Church - [a CoG church] and we all sat at another friends table to eat. We asked this new woman if she'd like to pray over the meal. There were 6 adults at the table and two young ladies in their early teens.
The woman began to speak in tongues and as she did, we suddenly heard her cursing and using the LORD's Name the cursing way. I saw no reaction from the young girl's and felt that the LORD had protected them but I stopped the woman from "praying". After we ate and took the woman home I found out that all of the adults heard her cursing but the two young girls only heard 'tongues'. If you had met this woman, you would have thought for certain that she was saved but she was not.

When I led the young adult group back in the 80's, a young man joined us who was in the military. He carried a Bible and acted like one of us. As we prayed together, the LORD directed me to take this young man outside the Church, at which point I asked him what I felt The LORD had told me to ask him - I asked, "Have you ever given your life to Satan for power." and he looked surprised and said "Yes" - I knew he had no intention to be saved so I asked him to leave. The young ladies in my Group knew there was something "Realy freaky" about him but the men didn't notice. He only affected the females and yes, he was possessed and no, he wasn't 'saved'.

That's just two of many stories that I also could tell but enough of the spook stories, though I have some even worse than these, about those who could quote Bible and even "evangelize" for "Christ".

I've met others in the pentecostal church that could quote the Bible verbatim and had much wisdom but were possessed and not Christians.

Anyone who speaks with the voice of a demon is not saved - regardless if they made some "mental assent" to Christ's death for our salvation and can quote tons of Scripture.
Anyone living in a persistent life-style prohibited by the Word of GOD is Not Saved - as Paul stated at least 3 times.

Easy believism is to blame for what is being thought to be demon possession "in Christians" and that's a fact.

The rest will be things that you can read, if you so desire.

1Ti 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
*that in the latter times*
some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits,
and *doctrines of devils*


From Albert Barnes Notes -

""And doctrines of devils - Greek, “Teachings of demons - διδασκαλίαις δαιμωνίων didaskaliais daimōniōn. This may either mean teachings “respecting” demons, or teachings “by” demons. The particular sense must be determined by the connection. Ambiguity of this kind in the construction of words, where one is in the genitive case, is not uncommon; compare Joh_15:9-10; Joh_21:15. Instances of the construction where the genitive denotes the “object,” and should be translated “concerning,” occur in Mat_9:25; “The gospel of the kingdom,” i. e., concerning the kingdom; Mat_10:1; “Power of unclean spirits,” i. e., over or concerning unclean spirits; so, also, Act_4:9; Rom_16:15; 2Co_1:5; Eph_3:1; Rev_2:13. Instances of construction where the genitive denotes the “agent,” occur in the following places: Luk_1:69, “A horn of salvation,” i. e., a horn which produces or causes salvation; Joh_6:28; Rom_3:22; 2Co_4:10; Eph_4:18; Col_2:11. Whether the phrase here means that, in the apostasy, they would give heed to doctrines “respecting” demons, or to doctrines which demons “taught,” cannot, it seems to me, be determined with certainty. If the previous phrase, however, means that they would embrace doctrines taught by evil spirits, it can hardly be supposed that the apostle would immediately repeat the same idea in another form; and then the sense would be, that one characteristic of the time referred to would be the prevalent teaching “respecting” demons. They would “give heed to,” or embrace, some special views respecting demons.""


http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/07/dealing-with-our-strongholds.html

http://ministers.ag.org/pdf/Possessed.pdf

http://www.svchapel.org/downloads/TheologyLessons/angelology.pdf

http://www.bhd.bz/apts/aeimages//File/AJPS_PDF/00-1-scarter.pdf



You choose what you believe.

 2011/6/3 4:09
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

1 John 5:18 (KJV) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV) 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



A person cannot be possessed of God and of the devil at the same time. God will not share His temple with the devil. If a person is possessed of the devil he/she is not saved but lost and under the power of the evil one.

A Christian needs to be certain of who he is, where he stands, and where he is going. He is to give no place to the devil. If he is truly born of God he will overcome through faith. If he gives ground to the devil then he will be oppressed and needs to immediately take back the ground he lost. If he loses all ground back to the devil then he has been in disobedience and if he does become possessed of the devil then the Holy Spirit does not dwell in him, therefore being lost and now under the control of the devil. God and the devil cannot possess the same vessel. God will not allow it for he is holy and will not share with the devil the same temple.

Again possession is a strong word and I take it to mean ownership and the truly born of God have been bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus Christ and are not their own anymore and we don't have to worry that God is going to give any ownership to the devil. Praise God he does protect us from the devil if we abide in Him and are trusting in Him.

Blessings to all!

 2011/6/3 5:57Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Not going to lie, this thread kind of hurts my brain. :)


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/6/3 6:16Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: the opposing view

Quote:
The argument of the light not being able to dwell with darkness is based on logic, not God's Word. God is present everywhere and cannot be limited by the darkness of this world. If that were the case, the Holy Spirit would not be able to dwell and work in a world full of sin and evil forces.


Very well put by Don Rogers. Thank you so much for supplying it and daring to speak against the majority!


And I wanted to add this book, The Authority of the Believer, was written around the 1910's and written by J. A. MacMillan. The whole book is posted and it too, is about his experiences in Philippines too and another country...

The Authority of the Believer. Principles set forth in the Epistle to the Ephesians. By Rev. J.A. MacMillan

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/macmillan/authorityofbeliever/authority-c.htm



God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/6/3 7:45Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Doctrine: Can Christians Be Demon-Possessed?


Rbanks,

I respect you very much and accept your corrections on matters but I've found this to be the second area we disagree on!! I hope it doesn't cause us to break fellowship, it truly is nothing personal against you (or anyone else who disagrees with me).

God bless you brother,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/6/3 7:49Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3487
Louisiana

 Re:

I believe that we all can agree on one thing, and that is that a true child of God that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be possesed by an evil spirit. We have been bought with a price by the blood of Jesus. We are not our own.

The problem is that the enemy has been given place to in many Christian's lives. Any Christian that has participated in the occult opens the door to demonic spirits. Any beliver who has continually yielded to sin in some area is doing the same.

I don't particulary care if the demon is on the inside or the outside. If a Christian is being harassed by a demon, let's deal with it. But we have to be aware of the open door that allowed the demon access, repent and close the door, and take authority over the demon in the name of Jesus.

I am not talking about mere doctrine here. I am talking through experience, ministering to other Christians for nearly 40 years now. I have seen many Christains not possessed but oppressed and in bondage to the enemy. I have also seen them set free through the power of the blood and name of Jesus. Anyone who wants to be free can be free. The devil can only have authority in a Chritian's life if that has been given to him. The ground that has been given to the enemy can be taken back.

I have ministered to prison inmates for many years now, and they do not seem to have a problem with this area. Many of them that have become Christians still struggle in certain areas, and long to be free.

The strongholds of the enemy are in the mind. You can be a Christian with the Spirit of God dwelling in you and not have a renewed mind. The enemy deceives Christians and if they believe his lies, then strongholds are formed in the mind. These strongholds can only be overcome by receiving the truth. Truth and light expose lies, and the enemy is overcome by falling out of agreement with these lies and coming into agreement with God and what He says.

If we have a heart to see the children of God set free in every area of their lives, the Lord will give us revelation to help them to be free.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2011/6/3 9:13Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re: Doctrine: Can Christians Be Demon-Possessed?

If I recall, this subject was discussed at length not so long ago. Why does it keep resurfacing?

In doing a search on demon possession, one can see it comes up quite often...SIGH


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Sandra Miller

 2011/6/3 9:50Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Resurfacing

Quote:
by ginnyrose on 2011/6/3 6:50:31 If I recall, this subject was discussed at length not so long ago. Why does it keep resurfacing?


It's not because those of us who believe in it keep bringing it up!! LOL

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/6/3 9:54Profile





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