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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Harold Camping: May 21st, The End of the World, and You

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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Also,does your eschatological understanding give any/much attention to the middle east,specifically the land of Israel and the ethnic Jewish people



I'm post-trib/pre-mil, and my views are in line with Art Katz. Yes, I give much attention to the Jews. But every hiccup in the middle east doesn't getting me thinking that Jesus is getting ready to step out onto the clouds of glory.


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Jimmy H

 2011/5/21 23:24Profile
rbanks
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Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:
And it is my thesis that the Harold Campings of American Evangelicalism are but a symptom of a much deeper problem with the way we approach the Scriptures, and do theology. And while we are busy going after the speck in Campings' eye, we fail to notice the beam in our own. Many hypocritically attack him for this reproach and shame he has brought on the body of Christ, without realizing they aren't too far removed from doing the very same thing. Harold Camping is treated as a heretic because he openly declared a date about the rapture of the church. Yet American Evangelicals by in large hold to the bogus idea of a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church, and espouse the very system and ethos Harold Camping operates on... they just don't pinpoint dates. But every hiccup in the middle east is viewed as a sure sign that Jesus could come tomorrow. So, instead of removing the speck from Harold Campings' eye, let us remove the beam from our own.




All I will say is- this is a mighty low blow from a professing Christian to others in the body of Christ. I can't see how Jesus is pleased with this comment.
Let's not bring hurt and accusations to others who may have another theological point of view.

Grace to you!

 2011/5/21 23:38Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

All I will say is- this is a mighty low blow from a professing Christian to others in the body of Christ. I can't see how Jesus is pleased with this comment.
Let's not bring hurt and accusations to others who may have another theological point of view.



I am not intending it as a blow to my brethren. I'm simply saying... bad theology is bad theology, no matter how many wonderful brethren sincerely hold to it. And we might need to consider God is attempting to show us where we've missed the mark by individuals such as this, who frankly, are only one step removed from the very same point of view.


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Jimmy H

 2011/5/21 23:48Profile
rbanks
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 Re:

Quote:
And we might need to consider God is attempting to show us where we've missed the mark by individuals such as this, who frankly, are only one step removed from the very same point of view.





KJ.

One also might could say that your theology could be one step removed from Camping's point of view when you proudly say that Christ can’t come back before the tribulation.

The bible plainly says that in an hour that you think not the son of man cometh and that no man knows the day nor the hour so we are to be ready.

When a man says he knows then it is pride and lifting oneself up way to high above others as having a more higher place with God than the scripture reveals.

It is sad for anyone to go beyond the scriptures and bring reproach against the wonderful name of our lord Jesus Christ.

Grace to you!

 2011/5/22 0:34Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

There is a great part of me that really wished Harold was right, I would much rather be with Christ in Glory than working right now. ;)


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/5/22 1:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Many hypocritically attack him for this reproach and shame he has brought on the body of Christ, without realizing they aren't too far removed from doing the very same thing. Harold Camping is treated as a heretic because he openly declared a date about the rapture of the church. Yet American Evangelicals by in large hold to the bogus idea of a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church, and espouse the very system and ethos Harold Camping operates on... they just don't pinpoint dates. But every hiccup in the middle east is viewed as a sure sign that Jesus could come tomorrow. So, instead of removing the speck from Harold Campings' eye, let us remove the beam from our own.



KJ,

Harold Camping has long been a heretic for far more serious reasons than simply declaring a date (false prophecies). His false doctrine runs deeper than stuff like this. You call me a hypocrite because I express my disgust at him bringing more shame on Christ, but it sounds more and more like you simply want to defend him. As for me, I do NOT believe in any pre-trib rapture of the church, etc.; i am not a pentacostal. I do not agree with silly movies like "Left Behind" or the Tim Lahays of the world any more than with Camping. What i believe in is the Holy Bible and no scripture is open to any private interpretation.

 2011/5/22 2:39
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

One also might could say that your theology could be one step removed from Camping's point of view when you proudly say that Christ can’t come back before the tribulation.



I am simply confident brother that this is not the case. Especially since Paul clearly said there are a lot of things that are going to happen before Christ gathers us to himself:

1 Thes 2: [1] Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [2] that you not be quickly shaken from yourcomposure or be disturbed either by a spirit or amessage or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [3] Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless theapostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself aboveevery so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. - (2 Th 2:2-4 NASB)




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Jimmy H

 2011/5/22 7:56Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

Harold Camping has long been a heretic for far more serious reasons than simply declaring a date (false prophecies). His false doctrine runs deeper than stuff like this.



This may be true. I don't know. I've never heard of the man before he made the news. But I think your level of being upset with this man is rather unfortunate. Yeah, I don't like the guy either. I think what he did is entirely unacceptable and is complete and obvious error. But, if we think he is the one whom the Lord would have us focus our attention on here, I think we've missed a much more profound spiritual lesson. Again, I don't think Harold Camping is the real issue here. There is a greater lesson here to be learned.

Quote:

You call me a hypocrite because I express my disgust at him bringing more shame on Christ, but it sounds more and more like you simply want to defend him.



I have done neither.

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As for me, I do NOT believe in any pre-trib rapture of the church, etc.;



That is good.

Quote:

i am not a pentacostal.



I'm not sure what Pentecostalism has to do with this topic? I would say that would be unfortunate though. But again, off topic.

Quote:

What i believe in is the Holy Bible and no scripture is open to any private interpretation.



Great! Me too :-)



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Jimmy H

 2011/5/22 8:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I have always felt that dogmatism and predictive prophecy are a dangerous mix. Some denominations are so pre-trib that they will not tolerate other views. Yet, during the 60's and 70's the belief was used as a scare tactic to both get sinners saved and keep believers holy. I remember as a 9 year old child living in fear that the Lord would come and leave me behind. It was the opposite of I Thess 4:18, "Therefore comfort one another with these words."

From a historical point of view I often point to the fact that the Jews had a good idea of the 'when' of Christ's first coming, but were in doubt about the 'what'. They filled in the blanks with all of their own Messianic concepts and most ended up missing their day of visitation. They became so dogmatic in asserting their own subjective prejudices and desires, that they were blind to reality. It is one of the most sobering things I know of. They so wanted Jesus to do what they wanted Him to do that they refused to recognize Christ. Rather than change their theology- they changed their 'man' and ultimately followed Bar Kochba to their own ruin.

Yet, what will we do with the 'blanks'__________? How will we fill them in? With concepts that are tailored to our own will? With ideas that cast us in the best construction? With notions that help us scare people in evangelism and comfort ourselves from persecution? These are the hard, soul-searching questions I have asked myself over the years. We have to identify the areas of our heart that are 'our will' and ask God to give grace to set those aside as we study and pray for revelation to come. We are all subjective in our reasonings (whether we realize it or not), because we are moving in influences and beliefs that exist in our minds and hearts undetected; but we can proceed safely if we can identify our prejudices.

As for this man that was mistaken I think of a quote by Arminius:

First, it is very difficult to discover truth and avoid error; second, people who err are more likely to beignorant than malicious; third, those who err maybe among the elect; and fourth, it is possible that we ourselves are in error.

When a person makes a mistake in predictive prophecy there is a danger of being labeled a false-prophet or heretic. This is why I would caution against being dogmatic. What happens if when one view is affirmed and the other is shown false- would we be prepared to label those that were wrong as 'false-prophets' because they falsely interpreted prophesy? This man had a formula he used (if the press is to be believed he took Genesis 7:4 “Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth” and 2 Peter 3:8 “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day”, and concluded that May 21, 2011 is 7000 years after the Great Flood 4990 B.C., concluding that it indeed is the Doomsday. 4990 + 2011 – 1 = 7000 (the subtraction of “1″ is necessary because year 1 B.C. is followed by 1 A.D., skipping year 0)). Inductive reasoning led this man to conclude yesterday would be it, but obviously there are more variables than he took into account. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2011/5/22 8:09Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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 Re:

Quote:

Inductive reasoning led this man to conclude yesterday would be it, but obviously there are more variables than he took into account. ;-)



I read of this formula as well. I am curious, has anybody seen how he concluded the Lord would return at 6 pm yesterday? My guess would be on how a Biblical day was reckoned, with the "evening" technically being the start of a new day?


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Jimmy H

 2011/5/22 8:17Profile





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