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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Cool, thanks for sharing AtG.


_________________
Oracio

 2011/5/11 18:18Profile









 Re:

Oracio, I am not going to be firm on this yet.

Leaving work and will have a deeper look into this.

Blessings to you my friend,
A777

 2011/5/11 19:29
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: the destruction of the flesh

Oracio and AtG

Please don't have a disagreement on my account over 'reprobate'

I admit that it was probably the wrong word to use. I intended to say that the man in Corinthians, and Hymenaeus and Alexander were probably christians who had openly sinned against the Lord, and not unbelievers.


By the way on the subject of delivering to Satan, do you think this is what Jesus Himself did when He sent away Judas in the upper room?
John chap 13
v 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
v 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
v 25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
v27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
v 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Just a thought


_________________
david

 2011/5/11 20:14Profile









 Re: The destruction of the flesh



Hi David,

I don't think we are. The verses which mention 'reprobate' - although the word is a strong statement of disapproval - may not preclude all repentance thereafter. It's just that we hear about these at the time the 'reprobates' have been delivered to Satan. We do know that the man in Corinth repented, so that seems to indicate being 'delivered to Satan' is not necessarily final.

Quote:
By the way on the subject of delivering to Satan, do you think this is what Jesus Himself did when He sent away Judas in the upper room?

Good question!

More on that next time. It's late here.

 2011/5/11 21:40









 Re:

Hi David, AtG and Oracio,

In pondering these scriptures last night regarding "delivering one unto Satan" and the scriptures regarding "reprobate", it was helpful for me to look into the full counsel of God and to remember that everything He does in our lives is with a view to repentance, restoration and reconciliation.

I started with Deut 11.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Today, many believe that since the "law has been done away with", there is no longer "the curse of the law". But then they look around at their family or their congregations and they see the curses of the law. Their religious traditions have caused them to have a total lack of understanding about the part of God's law that plays in the life of every Christian.

We have been taught that ALL of our trials are blessings from the Lord and not curses. Now, Jesus said that we are to set the captives free but we need to understand first why they are captive and we need to remember that the enemy comes but to kill, steal and destroy. These are not blessings!

Almost everytime that someone brings up something about the law others cry "legalism" or "you don't understand grace". Until we are willing to hear what God says about His law, we will never know true freedom nor will we have any understanding about the powers of darkness.

We see that the law did not get destroyed.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We also know in Matthew 22 that if we do these two things we have fulfilled the law and are no longer a law breaker.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, if Jesus did not abolish the law, what does the law do today?

The law stands to bring judgement on all sin.

The law brings the wrath of God.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The law brings a curse.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The law is a ministry of death.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious...

The law is a ministry of condemnation.
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory...

Who are the lawbreakers. They are those who do not walk in love and cannot walk in love. Their hearts are set on things that their hearts love. Their carnal mind is enmity against God it is not subject to the law of God (which commands us to walk in love) neither indeed can be. So that, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:7,8)

So, God is commanding us to walk in love or be destroyed.

And that is why the Old Testament is very relevant to us today (the powers of darkness carried out the curse of the law for God), except of course regarding the New Covenant through the Lamb of God (Jesus) and that we don't have to offer up sacrifices of bulls and goats anymore. And we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit and offer up spiritual sacrifices to God, daily.

If the Church was taught that the curses of God are still in effect today for those that refuse to walk in love and therefore break His law (Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor) there would be more of a fear of God today and you would not see such a carnal church with the powers of darkness all over them.

Because if we love our neighbor, we won't commit adultery with our neighbor's wife, or bear false witness against our neighbor.

The backslidden church today actually uses God's Word to justify their sins (especially Romans 7). Forms of godliness have explained the love that Jesus talks about away. They say that it is impossible to walk in the kind of love that the law requires and this is true if you are being led by a doctrine that does not conform you to godliness and does not even give you the hope that you can be holy. But if you are led by the Holy Spirit, He will make you holy just as He is holy.

When we are led by the Holy Spirit we are not under the judgement of God's law because we are fulfilling the law by walking in love. When we walk in the flesh we defraud and take advantage of others and this is sin and breaks God's law.

Those who sin by walking after the flesh do not have a hedge of protection against the powers of darkness. Therefore the powers of darkness bring the judgement, wrath and curse of the law upon all those who walk after the works of the flesh.

All these things come upon law-breakers.

I said earlier, that the "Powers of Darkness carry out the curses of the law".

Getting back to 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What I am seeing now is that God is bringing judgment and curses upon us (deliver such an one unto Satan) in order to get us to repent. This is not new in the NT (1 Cor 5:5). It has been God's way throughout the Bible.

These verses illutstrate what I said earlier, that the "powers of darkness carry out the curses of the law to all law-breakers". This is how the Lord God, "Delivered His people unto Satan in order to bring repentance and restoration. Satan is the rod of God's anger and He uses him as a tool to chastise His people.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation
Isa 10:6 I will send him AGAINST AN HYPOCRITICAL NATION, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to TREAD THEM DOWN like the mire of the streets.

Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; BECAUSE OF THE WICKEDNESS OF THY DOINGS, whereby THOU HAST FORSAKE ME.

Jer 29:17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, THEY ARE SO EVIL.

Jer 29:21 ...I will deliver them into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall slay them before your eyes;

Jer 29:23 Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD.

Eze 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:

Eze 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

We see that sin opens the doors in our lives to the powers of darkness which is judgement from God to chastise us.

So, I will agree with you that "reprobate" may not preclude repentance. God has a way of getting our attention and bringing us to our senses so that we will repent.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

We ignore the warnings and curses of God at our own peril and this is why the church today is dwelling place of demons. False teaching, doctrines of demons and forms of godliness. They have been brought into captivity and yet they say they are blessed.

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

A777

 2011/5/12 10:24









 Re: The destruction of the flesh



Thanks, A777, for your long, thoughtful, scripturally supported post. Here are more verses which fit - but are there others which would contradict?

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the LAWLESS and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


On the side of love, these passages:

John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Quote:
Because if we love our neighbor, we won't commit adultery with our neighbor's wife, or bear false witness against our neighbor.

While this is true, I believe the outworking of John 15:12 is not the same as 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'

Looking at the Greek, that's mainly because my neighbour may not feel any compulsion to love me as he loves himself, but my brother MUST love me as he loves himself. However, loving HIMSELF, is not the standard. Agape in the Church is loving the other as the Father loved the Son, and as the Son has loved us. John puts it this way in his first epistle.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4

Quote:
If the Church was taught that the curses of God are still in effect today for those that refuse to walk in love and therefore break His law (Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor) there would be more of a fear of God today and you would not see such a carnal church with the powers of darkness all over them.

This is a strong statement. I'm still thinking about it. But I have to admit if 'the law is for the lawless', and 'the curse of the law' comes as part of the deal Paul is stating, then what argument can refute your statement, A777?

Quote:
I said earlier, that the "Powers of Darkness carry out the curses of the law".

Getting back to 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What I am seeing now is that God is bringing judgment and curses upon us (deliver such an one unto Satan) in order to get us to repent. This is not new in the NT (1 Cor 5:5). It has been God's way throughout the Bible.

Yes, and it's quite different to think of the powers of darkness being involved in God's judgements, as they are not often mentioned in the Old Testament in those terms.

I'd like to hear what others think.

 2011/5/12 14:56









 Re:

Hi AtG,

Grab a coffee and have a sit.

Nice post, good food for thought.

AtG, when you think about the Philistines, Hittites, Jebusites, Girgashites, Amorites, Assyrians, Babylonians, etc, there were principalities and powers and authorities in high places behind them and controlling them.

Today, we are not attacked by these "tiny" nations or tribes, but rather the principalities and powers and authorities behind them still exist and as I pointed out in "Facing the Enemy" in the Possess The Land thread, there is a hierarchy of "principalities and authorities" that attack God's people. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

The OT and the NT are completely cohesive and complimentary of each other. There is a saying, I don't know from whom, but it goes like this, "The NT explained is in the OT contained". Actually, this time, Jesus explains one of the symbols in the OT, in Matt 13.

You know many examples of this. Here is one concerning the powers of darkness.

Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the WAY SIDE, and the FOWLS came and devoured them up:

What are the fowls?

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the WICKED ONE, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the WAY SIDE.

The Fowls are the Powers of Darkness, the wicked one or wicked ones.

Jesus explains that to those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Now, look at this.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations (idolatry) in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. (Today, we are the His house and these abominations are the works of the flesh found in Gal 5).

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places (pride) of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire (not leading their sons and daughters in the ways of the Lord, either. Causing them to learn sin, rebellion and idolatry); which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Obviously, God is very wroth.

Jer 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the FOWLS OF HEAVEN (powers of darkness), and for the beasts of the earth (demonic forces); and none shall fray them away.

Jer 7:34 Then will I cause (God is doing this) to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: FOR THE LAND SHALL BE DESOLATE.

We are already seeing in our study on Possess the Land what the Land today is. It is us.

Do you see how the OT and NT are in agreement? The fowls of heaven still exist and still are used by God as judgement on His people. When I read the OT, I am reading it with a NT mind but I understand exactly what the Lord is saying and how it all applies to me, today. You can be sure that the early church and the Apostles knew what the OT was saying. The warnings and curses are still valid, today.

You can search for other instances of FOWLS of heaven or some variation thereof. Also, "beasts of the field" in the OT is the powers of darkness.

Let's have a look at Revelation. There is going to be two suppers. One for the Bridegroom and the Bride and one for the Fowls of Heaven (powers of darkness), so this which is talked about in the OT is supported in the NT, again, not just about the Word that was being sown in Matt 13.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS THAT FLY IN THE MIDST OF HEAVEN, Come and gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the great God (of the GREAT GOD. This is not the supper of the Lamb).

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

So, the Powers of Darkness (FOWLS OF HEAVEN) are going to have a supper, too.

Satan has not changed. Man has not changed and God has not changed. Everything continues as it was. Even being righteous before God has not changed. It is still the faith of Abraham. The only thing that has changed is the Temple, which we are. We are the habitation of God.

Remember, even when Israel had the very presence (Ark of God) of God in their midst they committed iniquity and were judged and God used the powers of darkness behind the Amorites, Hittites, etc, to bring His judgement.

So too, today, we are the Temple of the Living God, we have the presence of God dwelling within us, and if we commit iniquity in the Land (our body) God will use the powers of darkness to bring chastisement, which is judgement upon us. This is not understood today in the Church and many are experiencing the "beasts of the field" and the "fowls of heaven".

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The imagery and symbolism in the OT definitely means specific things.

Read Jeremiah 12 with a NT mindset.

Read Jeremiah 15 with a NT mindset. (Always read the OT from a NT perspective).


Jer 15:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth. (What has God so upset?)

Jer 15:2 And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.

Jer 15:3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the LORD: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. (sword, dogs, fowls and beasts are all froms of the powers of darkness).

Jer 15:4 And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

Jer 15:5 For who shall have pity upon thee, O Jerusalem? or who shall bemoan thee? or who shall go aside to ask how thou doest?

Jer 15:6 THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward (backslidden): therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee (judgement), and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

Jer 15:7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I WILL DESTROY MY PEOPLE SINCE THEY RETURNED NOT FROM THEIR WAYS.

Now, let's ask ourselves, what is a "righteous man"?

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (We can choose to still be in the flesh).

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (So, what if you walk after the flesh?)

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (so what if we walk after the flesh? It then becomes the judgment and curses of the law which will be fulfilled in us).

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And what are we trying to do as we discuss this Word back and forth?

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

We are saying, wake up Church and SIN NOT.

I will close with this,

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am really happy that Jesus Christ intercedes for us and I believe God has more patience on us today because of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, according to Hebrews 12, God will still chastise (judge, rebuke, discipline) His children. And we should alwas flee sin and be holy as He is holy because the deceitfulness of sin can harden our hearts.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Kindly,
A777

 2011/5/12 17:11









 Re: The destruction of the flesh




In the following talk from the Dublin Revival Conference, Don Currin systematically examines the different ways in scripture which show how God exercises His wrath.

The Wrath of God

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=19068

 2011/5/12 17:45









 Re: The destruction of the flesh


Hi A777,

Quote:
In pondering these scriptures last night regarding "delivering one unto Satan" and the scriptures regarding "reprobate", it was helpful for me to look into the full counsel of God and to remember that everything He does in our lives is with a view to repentance, restoration and reconciliation.

I'm glad you came to this conclusion. It seems to me that the difference when looking at the situation in the Church at Thyatira, is that the person had already been invited to repent and had not. That's why Christ was threatening such an extreme solution should she not repent even after 'great tribulation' from His own hand.

I was thinking about verses with birds in them (fowls of the air, mainly), and apart from Matt 24:28 (eagles), this instance (v 32) - which is in Matthew and Luke as well, comes to mind. (There are also interesting references to 'fox' and 'foxes' in scripture, indicating a specific nature of pest(ilence).)

Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? 31 [It is] like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: 32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.


This seems to be a benign picture, but I wonder if it is, spiritually speaking? The only time I heard this preached upon, the preacher seemed to be saying that the church could be a good hiding place for unclean spirits. (Yes. That definite.) This thought ties in with the many verses you brought from the Old Testament, (and the field which had been deliberately sown with tares by an enemy).

Being delivered to Satan does sound extreme. I tend to think that the use of the name 'Satan', was shorthand for 'the powers of darkness', always remembering that Satan is not a free agent. God the Father even allowed God the Son to be tested by Him not only in the wilderness, but right in the thick of normal communiation with the disciples. We need to know our God and worship HIM.

 2011/5/13 18:26
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

AtG

You or Anonymous quoted earlier the section in Luke about Herod being a fox, willing to kill Him.

The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: Luke 13:31-35 (KJV)

And Jesus here says that He had to walk today, tomorrow and the day following as a hen gathering her brood under her wings. Naturally speaking, not a good thing to do.

David


_________________
david

 2011/5/13 19:22Profile





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