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 The destruction of the flesh



I wonder if anyone else has noticed the lack of symmetry between these two passages?

I'm interested in other verses which might separate between, or show a relationship between, Satan's powers in the first verses, and Christ's warning in the second verses.

Christ is looking for repentance, but Paul seems to think there's a stage before that. I'm trying to understand Paul's statement. I think I understand Christ's.

Thoughts?


1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 TO DELIVER SUCH AN ONE TO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

[It is clear that the change Paul wants to see, is in the hands of the Corinthians. Perhaps also in the actions of the one who is being condemned.]


Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; AND SHE REPENTED NOT. 22 Behold, I WILL CAST HER INTO A BED, AND THEM THAT COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER INTO GREAT TRIBULATION EXCEPT THEY REPENT of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 2011/5/8 10:27
ManofGod0000
Member



Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


 Re: The destruction of the flesh

all flesh must decrease if Christ is to be glorified and represented.

If the holy ghost is to work, then flesh must disintegrate n die

 2011/5/8 11:57Profile









 Re: The destruction of the flesh


Quote:
all flesh must decrease if Christ is to be glorified and represented.

If the holy ghost is to work, then flesh must disintegrate n die

Yes it must. But in other places Paul tells the believer to mortify the flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5)

In 1 Corinthians he's involving Satan. Why?

 2011/5/8 12:26
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: The destruction of the flesh

I wonder if anyone else has noticed the lack of symmetry between these two passages?

There is a difference between the Corinthian and the Thyatiran situation.

In the Corinthian church, it was one man who had committed this sin, although Paul sees the whole church as responsible. and must together put him out.

In Thyatira, there was a woman, who called herself a prophetess, and the church was allowing her: "to TEACH and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols".

In the previous church, Pergamum, there were some that "hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication."; but they were not teaching this in the church.


As regards "delivering such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh". Paul says that he had judged already, and this was his judgement (I believe as an apostle with all the power of binding and loosing). Does anyone have this power and authority today? This was Paul's own act; he did not tell them to do it. He does tell them to put such an one out. If a person is now put out from fellowship, he is not delivered to Satan, though in result he might possibly come under Satan, as being in the world.

It makes us realise that today, sadly, the churches are lacking so much which was there at the beginning.

David


_________________
david

 2011/5/8 18:18Profile









 Re: The destruction of the flesh


Hi David,

Thanks for your reply.

Reading the Corinthian verses again, I see that Paul had made a judgement on his own, but he was inviting the church, together with him, 'with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ', to deliver the man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.

I still don't understand what this actually means, or what it had to be done - unless merely because at the time of Paul's writing the man remained unrepentant, and the church hadn't been capable of disciplining him on their own. I still have no idea what it mean to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. How does it work?


On Pergamos: Revelation 2
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Again, it seems that the repentance Christ is exhorting, is like that in Corinth. He wants those who hold false doctrines to be put out of fellowship. That's what they have to repent of. This would tie in with Paul's injunction to Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 2011/5/9 19:15
ManofGod0000
Member



Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


 Re:

I dont know if paul is actually saying or requesting that the readers or hearers literally kill or destroy the deeds of their flesh.....

we cant else their would be no need for the holy spirit to get the credit and be glorified, not only that but we live a false life because it is something we attempt to do in our own flesh and energy, and we come to the end realizing that is our work, not God's.....

 2011/5/9 19:58Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I still don't understand what this actually means, or what it had to be done - unless merely because at the time of Paul's writing the man remained unrepentant, and the church hadn't been capable of disciplining him on their own. I still have no idea what it mean to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. How does it work?



It is important to realize here that this event took place in a genuine New Testament meeting where folk were truly walking out the reality of Revelation 2-3 where Jesus Christ walks in the midst of the lampstands. This is not a liturgical meeting, but a 'prophetic' meeting in which the people were walking in the Spirit under their Head Jesus Christ. He is in their midst and they are conscious of that. They gather together and in unanimity pass upon this individual, with the authority given to then by Christ, judgment to place this man into the hands of Satan for the destruction of the physical body (Gk. sarx context sensitive). He is set out beyond the benefits of the local assembly and will perish if he does not repent. Apparently he repented in 2 Cor. 2 and was restored. This event was very serious. This is not a group of 'church goers' looking to excommunicate a man, but with Christ in the midst a process designed by God to bring about genuine repentance. It is a difficult thing to consider, but a necessary part of genuine church life. It is an act of love with a view to loving the man enough to facilitate this discipline. Upon repentance he is to be received back into fellowship with the same love and zeal that he was turned over to Satan. It is an effective discipline. This is a dangerous time for the man and the church must be sensitive. The discipline must not exceed whats necessary or the enemy will gain an advantage and possibly destroy the man. Therefore we read, 'lest satan get an advantage of us because we are not ignorant of the Devil's devices.' The device of Satan is that the man would be swallowed up with too much sorrow. This must not be allowed to happen. We must follow Paul's example and confirm our love and restore the person, etc.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2011/5/9 20:29Profile









 Re:


Respectfully, not to disagree - but just to show how the Church at Corinth was so much like our Churches of today.
To state it plainly, Corinth was Paul's biggest headache.

Paul had to get wind of this activity going on in the Corinthian Church and rebuked the entire church before and after he laid out the measures to be taken.

These verses really should speak to some churches and members today -

1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

 2011/5/9 21:09









 Re:

AtG,

Have you seen these verses?

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have DELIVERED UNTO SATAN, that THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPHEME.

Roman Catholicism purged physically from the church those that they considered "heretics" Some Protestant reformers were guilty of the same.

I don't think the destruction of the flesh means physical death.

Otherwise the sentence following "DELIVERED UNTO SATAN" regarding Hymenaeus does not make sense. How could he "learn not to blaspheme" if he was killed?

This seems like an expression meaning to "put away the wicked man from among yourselves".

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

The design for this whole thing is redemptive. If a man is put to death physically, how could he "reform" and be restored to the Lord and to His Body?

v9 have no company with

v11 with such a one do not even eat

This is severing of Christian fellowship.

I think RobertW provided the rest of it wonderfully.

This phrase, “for the destruction of the flesh”, seems closer to turning the man over to Satan (i.e., back into the world), that he may reap the fruit of his rebellion.

Because, when you are put out of a loving fellowship of true believers and not allowed to come back, this is exremely distressing because you know that you have been loved and treated well in this group that truly knows the Lord and that is a rare find. And they are exercising the Lord's chastening on you. You can't just go down the block to the next "loving" fellowship. Most are works oriented factories. These are people that extended their lives to you. You aren't being put out of an organization you are being put out of a FAMILY.

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are TAKEN CAPTIVE BY HIM AT HIS WILL.

A777

 2011/5/10 1:17
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

So there appear to be two references

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, TO DELIVER SUCH AN ONE TO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5, 4 - 5

and

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have DELIVERED UNTO SATAN, THAT THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPHEME. 1Ti 1:20

The first was for the destruction of the flesh, and the second, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Both appear to concern reprobate saints, and both are judged by Paul, so that the church should be cleared in these matters.Both judgements are different in outcome. Again, I would say that I believe Paul had authority as an apostle of Christ to act and judge in this way.

My personal belief is that it would be very dangerous for anyone to try to build a doctrine or a practice of "delivering unto satan" from these references, as such authority as Paul had, in laying the foundation of the church, is not present today. But I could be wrong.

David


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david

 2011/5/11 12:04Profile





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