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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the scroll sealed with seven seals in Revelation?

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JRGuthrie
Member



Joined: 2011/5/26
Posts: 2


 Re: No evidence for The Rapture

Quote:
What Bible are you reading???



While I agree that there will be a greater "shaking" to come, I am astonished at your ignorance that there is no evidence for the rapture, does your Bible have 1 Thessalonians???

I'm sure that many of my brothers could argue the point better than I can, but the word 'rapture' is derived from the Latin raptus which means to be caught up it's where we get the word raptor meaning bird of prey from, precisely the meaning that Paul has in mind in 1Thes 4.

To deny this doctrine whether it be Pre Trib Mid Trib or Post Trib, is an extreme act of folly on your part my friend.

I would appeal to any brother who has studied this 'vital' doctrine in detail to post what you know on the subject that our dear brother might be corrected accordingly.

 2011/5/26 12:34Profile









 Re:

As they say, the Revelation needs to be studied along with Daniel - primarily chpts 7-12.

The four horsemen are the same 4 beasts that Daniel saw in Dan 7 - which makes them 4 kingdoms. Daniel 7-12 had been sealed up - and when the LORD unsealed them - He picked right back up from the mystery of Daniel 7-12 with the Revelation and shed even the more light on Daniel's visions.
Daniel 7 gives the description of these 4 kingdoms and the Revelation tells us what these 4 kingdoms will Do, using the horses/men as those loosed upon the earth to work His last days scenario regarding the world but the focus of these kingdoms/horsemen is Israel. Everybody wants Jerusalem for the 'seat of power' for their "messiah" - so these four are much involved with Israel/Jerusalem - though their reigns affect the earth.
I gave what I've researched to be the 4 kingdoms/horses on another thread and as Daniel 7 states - they'll be around until the Ancient of days takes them out at His Coming with His Saints and that they are 4 kingdoms that "raise up in the latter days". They're not "religions" or any other "isms" but Kingdoms with rulers over them.
Rev 13:2 gives the merger of these 4 from Daniel 7 as the description of the last days Beast system = the Diverse Beast with a mouth like a Lion, that was like a leopard/panther, and had the feet of the bear - forming the Diverse Beast. If one doesn't understand Daniel 7, they'll make up what the 4 are from their own minds - and not see that these are actual kingdoms/nations except for the Diverse Beast/4th horsemen - which is a combination of kingdoms - the one we see in the Beast system of Rev 13:2.

As we saw in Daniel 12, the book was sealed up until the end of days and would be opened when "those days" began.
Those days began with Israel becoming an nation and what kingdoms were involved in declaring her a nation.

One need only go to Wikipedia :) to find out what four kingdoms were involved in Israel being regathered and Coincidently - the first three beasts of Daniel 7 use the exact same "symbol for their nations" as we presently use in 'this' generation for these nation/kingdoms. That alone should help us to see that the Revelation horses are the updated version of Daniel 7.
Which nations/powers have been symbolized in 'our' days, since the 1940's as "the Lion" [the 'eagles wings'], the "panther/leopard", and the "bear" and lastly - a Diverse Beast that is a combo of these three?

Not much sense in posting Israel's and the UN history again, because everyone has their own interpretation for the 4 beasts of Daniel and the 4 horsemen and in many ways, it doesn't matter because the whole of it will be played out in front of our eyes soon enough by the 4.

Well, the question of the thread was, what was that which was sealed and I 'think' we may agree that it was Daniel's visions being unsealed in the Revelation.
It's just a question of coordinating the two books and with actual history of those 4 beasts of Daniel 7 and on through to Daniel 12. We're half-way through the first horsemen [the Lion who's 'eagle's wings' were plucked] - so it's going to be quite a ride from here when the price of food goes up world-wide next, including in the good ol' USA, as it was in Germany as Hitler came on the scene with his 'panther' [which is leopard] symbol, [the black horse] [nazi like socialism] - and then Russia with it's war,[the red horse] - and then the Diverse beast, [the green/pale horse] that comes in to make [a false] peace by destroying many.
And from one of these 4 rises up the little horn, that son of perdition. The first 7 verses of Daniel 8 tell us who this antiChrist is "not" or from which kingdom he does Not come out of - but it takes intensive study and pushing aside a lot of what we find easier to believe, but the fact that these are 4 kingdoms should be clear enough to see from Daniel and how they tie in with the 4 horsemen is something that one will see as time goes on.

That's it for what was sealed up and now unsealed - the 4 kingdoms/horsemen who have been involved with Israel being regathered as a nation and what comes after, until He Returns to rid us of these 4 beasts with their little horn Chief.







 2011/5/26 12:59









 Re:

RevCrabtree, I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'd like to say that I'm not dispensational, but do believe in a post-trib resurrection of the Saints, AT His Returning and believe that if read literally, that Rev 20 shows a millenial reign, followed by the war of Gog and Magog, vs 8.
Would like to hear your views on this Resurrection of the Saints.

Back to Daniel 7 - these two verses is, in part, what I was trying to say above - Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. and Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth

and then on to Dan 8 is more about the 4 - Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
And - Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


In eschatology - wherever "4" are mentioned, it's the same 4. GOD is not the author of confusion and there is indications in both Daniel and the Revelation that these things were written for us to "understand".

Wherever the "10" are mentioned in either book, they are the same "10" that are part of the Diverse Beast or the Beast System that will rule the world, out from which shall rise the antiChrist - as seen in Dan 7, 8 and Rev 13.

It's only when we make 'many' explanations of who these 4 and 10 are that we get far too speculative and GOD doesn't play with our minds with multiple 4's and multiple 10's and then say that we should "understand". Hoy - Thank GOD!

By the way - the eagle's wings HAVE BEEN "plucked" and that's the sad news for some very nationalistic people - as the Lion has shown just recently what it thinks of the eagle's "king", just within this last week. Those from the Lion Kingdom may have heard that story already. It's sort of funny but eschatologically speaking, it's not.


Just thought I'd clarify about the Scoffield comment.

Peace!

 2011/5/26 13:58









 Digging in Daniel and history?

I MOSTLY AGREE WITH THE RATHER LENGTHY ARTICLE BELOW, WITH SOME OF MY IDEAS INTERMINGLED.

For those of you interested in a different view; take the time to read it. It is interesting to me. I am leaning this way...but in no way would I say I have it pegged.....BT

"Daniel 7 states - they'll be around until the Ancient of days takes them out at His Coming with His Saints and that they are 4 kingdoms that "raise up in the latter days". They're not "religions" or any other "isms" but Kingdoms with rulers over them." JIG...Jesus is God

Yes, they are Kingdoms...but the spirit of the Kingdoms represent the Princes and Principalities seated in the heavenly realm. I do not believe that these beasts are the same as the 4 Horseman, but related. The White horse is Islam, and the kings are Satanic Princes..abd the little horn, as I see it, is the Islamic anti-Christ coming.

1st beast...winged lion...Babylon
2nd beast...Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...
bear - Medo-Persia
3rd beast.[leopard ]..Greece
4th beast...Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...
fourth "dreadful" - The Roman Empire

..............ARTICLE................
On the prior page Daniel defined the term "beast" when used in the context of a dream or vision in prophecy: Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...
BEAST = KINGDOM
[In this you are correct JIG.]

Daniel's lion, bear and leopard kingdom "beasts" discussed with a broad understanding of them to be the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, reappear together in scripture only one more time - in Revelation Chapter 13 - but combined into a single composite "beast" - kingdom.


Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel's beast is "his")
(The Greek interlinear below helps us understand who it is that gives what to whom.)


The reverse order was perhaps because Daniel was forward looking at these kingdoms to come, while John was looking backward at their fulfillment. This leopard-bear-lion beast was to continue 42 months.

The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard which are widely believed to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon.


The dragon in the verse above is Satan. The power that Satan gave his Islamic kingdom "beast" is oil. No surprise we find western nations whoring themselves out to countries that are composed of up to 100% antichrists, that are even sworn to annihilate us, to keep the flow of oil going.

Even giving weapons to these countries that will eventually be turned on Israel. This while the same nations evermore compromise the safety and freedom of the Israelis, who are the only people in the Middle East, that share our western values. Indeed Muslims enjoy more freedom in Israel than they do in any Islam controlled state on earth.


This Islamic kingdom is described "as a leopard", perhaps because while an individual Muslim can change it is impossible for Islam to change, as long as the Quran (mouth of the "beast") exists:


Jerimiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.


While these countries and various sects of Islam may have differences, and some with national sovereignty, they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran.

As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.
Iraq 97%, Iran 98%, Syria/Lebanon 90%/60% Islamic.

Bible prophecy is ethnographic and therefore is largely about the Middle East and the Holy Land.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Thus it is necessary to understand it in the context of the times during which John was writing - looking through his eyes at his world - to apply this ethnographic hermeneutic. Terms like "whole world" are not about Peoria Illinois. "that deceiveth the whole world".

Thus John's "whole world" is virtually entirely Islamic, with the exception of Israel, and small percentages of persecuted Christians in a few other countries in the area.

However the Lord's interest isn't likely to lie in the artificial boundaries of men, but rather in the spiritual condition of mankind. Men united by the spirit of antichrist, in this case. Each of Daniel's successive kingdoms conquered the whole known world (Middle East area) in its turn.

Leopard-Bear-Lion - Islamic Empire

While some Muslims may be unaware that other Muslims mark the Quran with the number 666, former PLO terrorist Walid Shoebat also said that the moment he saw the GREEK symbol for 666, he read it as the ARABIC symbol for "Bismillah", or "in the name of Allah."

There are ISLAMIC web sites that discuss how the number 666 demonstrates the perfection of the Quran, and that the Quran "is the 666". This number association of 666 was prophesied in Scripture 500 years before Mohammed was born and is explored more completely on this page.


Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
It is very important to understand The History of Mecca.

For nearly thirty years, seventy-nine year old Ellis Skolfield has written about the central role of Islam in Second Coming prophecy, by studying within the traditional continuous-historic framework.


NOTES ON THE LEOPARD-BEAR-LION BEAST


Some Muslims claim the Bible was corrupted to demonize Islam, but this would have been an impossibility since it had been copied thousands of times and translated into many languages over the hundreds of years before Mohammed was ever born.

The Quran, on the other hand, was collected on stones and palm leaves, wasn't even written until long after Mohammed died, and the current Middle East version was selected from among many versions - while burning the rest - twice. Here is an online book written by M. Ali - a Nigerian former Muslim - now Christian evangelist - that discusses the differences between Islam vs. Christianity and the Bible vs. the Quran.


With the understanding of the kingdom beast Islam, and the false prophet Mohammed, marked by the number 666, we can now exegete Chapter 13 of Revelation without trouble, and indeed the book of Revelation, reconciling it with the book of Daniel, as well as the Olivet Discourse, through this perspective - and confirm it all mathematically.


The two horned beast of Rev chapter 13 is covered in chapter 12 of The False Prophet. It is manifest in the Crusades and the British mandate and the remnant of the Roman Empire, unto today. The False Prophet includes a sound hermeneutic study of FULFILLED prophecy, not guesswork theology. It may not fit some of the 20th century church's pop-eschatological doctrines, but it fits scripture very well when we employ sound study principles, and is also manifest in the world around us.


This study employs a traditional linear historic, or continuous historic, view of prophecy.

[ all above study by; beholdthebeast.com ]BT

 2011/5/26 18:02









 Re: Digging in Daniel and history?


We see what happens to the Medes and Persians in Daniel chpt 8 and then we're back to the 4 again in 8:8 - and from one of the four comes the little horn / the antiChrist.
This is not merely speculation but having been shown the plans of the nwo minds from centuries past until present.
The three monotheistic religions are to be gotten rid of by turning the three against each other and that is what is known to be called just a part of "The Plan" for a one world government.
The powers that be are not threatened in the least by "islamic/muslims" but are only using them - temporarily to bring about their nwo - period.
This is not guess work, but decades of research into the mind and guts of those who are bringing in their nwo and how they have been and will make it all happen. These "4" are running this world as we speak and that is a documentable fact. Nothing of what has been written has been guess work but based upon full documentation of the powers that presently run this world and for one purpose only and have but one purpose for Jerusalem.
But, believe as you wish - it will happen as they've planned for many hundreds of years - will use the UN to do it and we may very well be around to see all of Daniel fulfilled. Daniel 8 is rather clear on what happens to the Medes and Persians. The nwo is and will be white-anglo-saxons - as are the first three beasts of Dan 7 and babylon herself and eventually the Diverse beast will be as well.
One would need to extensively look into the powers-that-be that rule this world, who's only aim is global depopulation for their one world utopia - and the true Christians, Jews and Muslims are not part of their plans in any way except to be exterminated.
These are the 4 powers that have run this world since just before and during the time that Israel was called Israel again. Look into how that happened and you may know who has run this world. It sure has not been islamics.
That is the same cookie-cutter eschatology that we've see on all the bookstands in Chritian book stores and it's nonsense. To bluntly spit it out - just for two - It's been London and New York that have run most of this world's finance decisions and all decisions, from as far back as one can look and since the UN has been in NY - the UN has been running things with their OK and also of Russia and China. Look into who the 5 are that are the head member states of the UN Security Council. Look to see who are comprise "The Quartet".
I won't say much more about this. If these 4 powers are not seen for who they are and how much power they've had in world history up until this present day - there's no sense to even begin to try to drag up that much history about them now. People believe what they choose and regardless of London, New York, Russia, the UN and Germany's role in world events - until the he-goat does what he's going to do as per Dan 8:1-7 - people will believe what they read in their Newspapers and won't be watching for that little horn to rise out of the one who takes down those that they thought was the greatest threat.

shalom.

 2011/5/27 10:38
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

"We see what happens to the Medes and Persians in Daniel chpt 8 and then we're back to the 4 again in 8:8 - and from one of the four comes the little horn / the antiChrist" JIG

I believe that it is widely accepted that the the he goat with the great horn in chapter 8 which broke the power of the Medo Persian kingdom was Alexander the Great (the king of Grecia v21).

Historians agree that, on his death, his kingdom was divided beltween his 4 generals (to the 4 winds v.8): One of these generals founded the Ptolomeic kingdom in Egypt and he and his successors are known as the king of the south in Daniel. Another General founded the Seleucidan kingdom and is known as the king of the north. (King Herod came from this line).

The 'little horn" of v. 5 is a descendant of the Seleucian line called Antiochus Epiphenes, who in BC 170 stormed Jerusalem, slaying multitudes and selling others into captivity. He profaned the temple by setting up an idol to Jupiter Olympias, and took away the daily sacrifices (1 Maccabedees 1 v54). This was shown to Daniel in chap 8 v 9 to 12.

But all this already fulfilled prophesy is just the TYPE of what will happen in the last days.

The Type is Antiochus Epiphenes. The ANTITYPE (what the type represents) is the Antichrist himself.
The Type is Greek. The Antitype is Roman.
The Type ruled for six and a half years (v14 - 2300 days. NB these are real days of evenings and mornings - see v 26). The Antitype will rule for three and a half years. (God has shortened the time Matt 24)

Both Type and Antitype do many similar things, as this is prophecy, and the Lord is showing us, by the Type, the true character of the Antitype. But only the Antichrist will fulfill all the prophesy completely. It is, I believe, the same with the part fulfillment by the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in AD 70.

So Chap 8 gives us a forward history of the Type, the Grecian, Seleucian king, descendant of Alexander. But chapter 11 shows clearly, especially from v 36 the prophesied history of the the Antitype, who is the Antichrist. But rejoice, for "yet he shall come to his end".


David


_________________
david

 2011/5/27 17:47Profile









 Re:

Hi David. Yes, I am aware of this interpretation and how it fits Alexander - but reading on to the 'Saint's' and Gabriel's interpretation to Daniel gives us an understanding of this little horn that many scholars cross-reference forward to the coming anti-Christ.
Many prophecies have dual fulfillments and those who leave it just as Alexander are mainly the Early reformed theology amillenialists.

But Daniel 8:11 is cross-referenced to Dan 12:11

Daniel 8:13 is cross-referenced to Matt 24:15

Gabriel's words -

Dan 8:17 ""So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man:

for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.""


And on from there describing this 'little horn' such as -

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power:
and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper,
and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.



 2011/5/27 21:45





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