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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Should Preachers Be Paid? - Mack Tomlinson

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

sam09 wrote

Quote:
Full-time Christian workers must trust God for all their financial needs and must reveal those needs only to Him. God will then prompt His children to supply their needs . They must not live "by faith in God and hints to other believers", as many live today."The Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel" (1 Cor.9:14). So those who serve the Lord full time are permitted to receive gifts from other believers. But they must never receive a salary. There is a vast difference between gifts and a salary. Gifts cannot be demanded, whereas a salary can be demanded. Here lies the cause for the backslidden condition of most Christian churches and institutions today.


Thanks for the quotes from Zac Poonen. Seems like he is more in agreement with Viola and Barna on this topic than with most of mainline evangelicalism.

A Scripture that I think is pertinent to this thread is Acts 20:33-35
"33 I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. 34 Yes,[d] you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. 35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Paul exhorted the Ephesian elders/pastors to labor with their own hands to support themselves and the weak, as opposed to receiving full-time support from others. The NT seems to teach that full-time itinerant evangelists or missionaries have a certain kind of right to be supported in their full-time ministry. Paul had that right because he was an itinerant apostle and evangelist. And that makes a lot of sense. A full-time intinerant evangelist or missionary will not be able to keep a regular job because he will always be on the go from location to location. But local pastors seem to be expected to have regular jobs and/or accept gifts(not salaries).

But when it comes down to it, I think this is an issue we can respectfully agree to disagree on without dividing over.


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Oracio

 2011/5/5 15:28Profile
StarofG0D
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Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Quote:
And I became dependent upon it, so much so that when the Lord wanted me to leave, I hesitated because of the money (I made excuses to stay).



Sister you bring up some valid points. It's a temptation to become dependent upon these things rather than on God, just like it is a temptation to become dependent upon a secular job for security rather on the Lord.

I was in full time ministry for a season in my life as a very young and new believer to the Lord. And became dependent on the church and upon those upholding me(though looking back I am sure without a shadow of a doubt it was Him upholding me always, but at the time I was too naive to realize it!:), but when the church split/scattered, it was earth shattering! :)

But by God's grace I know He loves and takes care of ME, His love is unfailing.


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Michelle

 2011/5/5 15:42Profile
mikey2
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Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

First off, does Zac Poonen believe in the clergy/laity system? Does he believe in the tithe or just giving as the Holy Spirit leads?

His ten commandments modified.

1. Never make your financial needs known to anyone but God (Phil.4:19).

Except the IRS (you have no choice) and Banks (who of you have not gotten loans. Zac is independently wealthy, easy for him to say)

2. Never accept money from unbelievers (3 John 7).
For the work of the ministry.

3. Never expect any gifts from anyone (Psa.62:5).
Except your parents.
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

4. Never allow anyone to control you or influence your ministry by giving you money.

And never allow anyone to tell you when to give, how much to give and who to give or to tell you NEVER, 10 times.

5. Never accept money from those who don't receive your ministry.

How would you know they don't receive your ministry. Most people don't give you money and say, "by the way you are biblically unscriptural."

6. Never accept money for your personal or family needs, from anyone poorer than you.

Why? And how would you know if you are poor also. And why, if the Lord has placed it on this person's heart?

7. Never be dependent on any man for your financial needs.
Only exception is Pastors with salaries. They are dependent on man for their financial needs. It's ok for them. No Foodstamps, no unemployment compensation or Social Security.

8. Never handle God's money in a way that would cause others to suspect mishandling (2 Cor.8:20,21).
Of course, when people judge you by their standard, you are probably always mishandling money. All of our money is the Lord's, not just what is given to the big organization.

9. Never be excited when you receive money.
No Praise the Lords or Hallelujahs? Aw..

10. Never be depressed when you lose money.
Rejoice instead!

Very realistic.

I have found that NEVER is a good word to NEVER use.

 2011/5/5 16:02Profile
learjet
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Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
First off, does Zac Poonen believe in the clergy/laity system? Does he believe in the tithe or just giving as the Holy Spirit leads?



Brother,

I can tell you with 100% certainty that he does not. He believes and carries out his beliefs like Paul did in the book of Acts. They plant churches by appointing unpaid elders, they do this because the 'prosperity gospel' has been 'so abused' in India that they want no part of it.

He also teaches that you should only give what you can 'give with a cheerful heart' (basically the same thing Jesus taught), and no he does not believe in the paying tithes, if you listen to 1 of his sermons you would know this because he mentions it nearly every time that he preaches.

Peace to you.

 2011/5/5 19:54Profile
mikey2
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Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

Wonderful! Thank you, Learjet

 2011/5/5 20:14Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Should preachers Be Salaried?


Today the custom in most churches is to have a full-time, salaried clergy, but this is not following the biblical teachings.

Missionaries and evangelists(preachers)most certainly ought to be supported by the rest of the members of the body.

There is a vast difference between those at home and those sent abroad.

"With the exaltation of the clergy appeared the tendency to separate them from secular business, and even from social relations — from marriage, for example — and to represent them, even outwardly, as a caste independent of the people, and devoted exclusively to the service of the sanctuary. They drew their support from the church treasury, which was supplied by voluntary contributions and weekly collections on the Lord’s Day. After the third century they were forbidden to engage in any secular business, or even to accept any trusteeship. Celibacy was not yet in this period enforced, but left optional. Tertullian, Gregory of Nyssa, and other distinguished church teachers, lived in wedlock, though theoretically preferring the unmarried state. Of an official clerical costume no certain trace appears before the fourth century; and if it came earlier into use, as may have been the case, after the example of the Jewish church, it must have been confined, during the times of persecution, to the actual exercises of worship." - Phillip Schaff

On 1 Timothy 5:17 R.C.H. Lenski has these insightful comments:

"It is generally assumed that the elders were paid for their services in the apostolic churches. We are convinced that this assumption is not tenable. The probability is that none of them were paid. The elders of the synagogues were not paid or salaried. Each synagogue had a number of elders, too many to have a payroll that would be large enough to support them. The apostolic congregations imitated the synagogue in this respect. Our passage speaks of "twofold honor," not of twofold financial pay or salary. Paul's two quotations support the injunction relating to according due honor to diligent elders; such honor is to be their reward just as the ox treading out grain is accorded the privilege of eating as he tramped along, just as the worker is accorded his pay. The tertium of the analogy lies in the worthiness and not in the identity of what the three are worthy of: the elders worthy of what naturally should go with their office--honor; the ox worthy of what naturally goes with the task for which he is employed--wisps of grain; the workman worthy of what naturally goes with his work--pay for his work."

"The word "honor" in this verse (time in the Greek) means just what it is translated as--honor, not pay (unless we want to conclude that we should give some elders "double pay"!). If Paul had intended to teach that elders are to be paid, he could have used the Greek word misthos, which means "wages" (which he used in v.18). In v.18, Paul simply says that, just as an ox deserves to eat because of his work, and just as a worker deserves to be paid because of his work, so an elder deserves honor because of his work (v.19 gives an example of such honor--see also 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13). This same word (time) is used in 1 Timothy 6:1; are slaves to "pay" their masters?"
Svendsen on 1 Tim. 5:17

George Mueller refused to accept a salary. Why?

“The whole system tends to the bondage of the servant of Christ. One must be unusually faithful and intrepid if he feels no temptation to keep back or in some degree modify his message in order to please men, when he remembers that the very parties, most open to rebuke and most liable to offence, are perhaps the main contributors toward his salary.” ~ George Mueller ~

 2011/5/6 0:41Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Very interesting quotes savannah, thanks for sharing.


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Oracio

 2011/5/6 2:11Profile









 Re: Should Preachers Be Paid? - Mack Tomlinson

From the middle quote in savannah's last post:

Quote:
The tertium of the analogy lies in the worthiness and not in the identity of what the three are worthy of: the elders worthy of what naturally should go with their office--honor; the ox worthy of what naturally goes with the task for which he is employed--wisps of grain; the workman worthy of what naturally goes with his work--pay for his work."

Thanks for this.

When I was reading the OP, I felt there was something wrong with the deductions being made from the scriptures quoted, which I think this writer has ironed out.

I would add, too, that when I read 1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more', we have an echo of George Muller's point.

The other thing I notice in 1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I ABUSE NOT MY POWER in the gospel', seems to show Paul DEMONSTRATING his awareness of his reputation when he was a Pharisee, of his abuse of power. For him to recitfy his reputation as a man of God, the last thing he need show interest in receiving, is money.

I would back up this thought from Romans 7:7, because it is of interest that of all the points of the law Paul chooses as an example, he picks this one: 'What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.'

Add this to his statement about 'handling the word of God deceitfully', 'hidden things of dishonesty' and 'craftiness', in 2 Corinthians 4:2, and one is building a picture of a man who has somewhat to prove in his Christian walk, that he is changed at HEART.

It's not merely that now he restrains himself from 'breathing out threatenings and slaughter' against those whom he hates (because their doctrine offends him), but he wants every part of his life to show sustained change in its deepest recesses.

He adds that he would rather NOT be a preacher, so the whole construct has become one of obedience to God in which he has no personal gain. His satisfaction is in his abandonment to Christ's will for his life, and the gospel message of Christ crucified, (and himself crucified with Christ).

 2011/5/6 6:58





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