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sscr01
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Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 The fourth commandment

The Creator sanctified the seventh day sabbath from the creation of the world. He wrote the ten commandments with his own finger in stone. Man doesn't have the authority to change the sabbath. In fact, many have strained to attempt to prove that the New Testament believers did so. Daniel 7:25 says of the little horn (Antichrist) that, he shall "...think to change times and laws." The sabbath was officially changed by the Papacy at the Council of Laodicea on March 7, 364 A.D., 43 years after Constantine declared Sunday the day for christians to honor as the rest day. The Roman church also deleted the 2nd and split the 10th commandments, thus fulfilling Da 7:25.

 2004/11/29 19:44Profile
lastblast
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Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re: The fourth commandment

I know this is what the 7th day Adventists teach (the "Sabbath" was done away with in the Christian church in the late 300's Ad). I am sitting here right now reading Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian's writings regarding the Sabbath and the observing of it. None of them believed in observing it------Justin Martyr wrote quite a bit on the issue. I would encourage you to seek out the writings of the ECF (Early church fathers)---especially the antenicene fathers which are the earliest church writings (80ad-300ad). You will clearly see that the nonobservance of the Sabbath was something that occured VERY early in church history and the most renowned Christians of that time believed Sabbath keeping did not grant God's favor. Here's a good site of their writings: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

Click on the "V2". Blessings in Him............


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Cindy

 2004/11/29 20:00Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 ReThe heart of the sabbath

I believe the very heart of the sabbath is a seeking to enter in the the rest that remained or is available to us in Christ Jesus.What do you think?


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D.Miller

 2004/11/29 20:26Profile
hredii
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Joined: 2004/8/1
Posts: 218
Fresno CA

 Re: The fourth commandment

Yesterday I was thinking about this subject. It seems unusual that God would nullify one of the 10 commandments.

Colossians 2:16,17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

The only understanding is that Christ has fulfilled this, but the rest of the commandments will be fulfilled during the second coming? Christ is our rest.

I personally take Sunday as my day of rest. I kind of set my own standard though. I allow myself to type here but I will not go to a store and allow my conscious defiled by knowing that someone had a excuse not to go to church because they had to work (for me).

So as I shared that please do not judge me in my sabbath.

But please share your thought with us.

I care for you all.


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Adam Fell

 2004/11/29 21:04Profile
lastblast
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Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

I also see Christ as the fulfillment of the Sabbath----HE is our rest. One day set aside for Him for reflection/study/worship is fine, but I think truly what He desires of us is for us to rest in Him 24/7.

I found it interesting reading some of the ECF's "blips" on this topic today. In their writings, they seem to be of the mind that keeping the Sabbath was not necessary for Adam nor any of the saints prior to the giving of the 10 commandments, therefore why is it that keeping a "day" is now what gives us favor with God----especially considering that scripture tells us that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath/rest for mankind? Interesting, valid point in my opinion. Blessings.........


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Cindy

 2004/11/29 21:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
------Justin Martyr wrote quite a bit on the issue.



The writings of Justin martyr are very antisemetic and I believe this governed many of his beliefs.

Sabbath (shabot) means "ceasation" and begins when the first star appears in the sky on Friday night and ends when the first star appears in the sky on Saturday night. It was a time of rest that God instituted as a pattern of His own behavior. Nevertheless, their remaineth a rest for the people of God. (Hebrews 4:9) It can be argued that we cease from our own works of righteousness when we are in Christ; as He is our rest. This does not change the day of rest being a Saturday. Man is not at liberty to change what day the Sabbath shall be. However, Sunday was the first day of the week and was celebrated as a day of worship by the early Christians. This plays out as follows:

"The First Day of the Week"

Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; refer to the first day of the week as the day in which Christ arose from the dead.

Matthew 28:1 reads Now after the Sabbath towards the dawn of the first day of the week." (RSV)

Acts 20:7 refers to a day Paul taught at Troas when the Church gathered together to break bread. Paul preached until midnight in this passage. You know the story.

I Corinthians 16:2 refers to when provision for the Saints in Jerusalem were to be set aside. This adds more weight that there were gatherings on Sunday.

Moreover, Paul taught that none are to judge concerning meat, drink, new moons, and Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come. It is my understanding that the early Church (1st Century), which was comprised exclusively of Jews (up to Acts 10, roughly 10-15 years) and added Gentiles from Acts 10 to the present, celebrated BOTH Sabbath and the first day of the week (Sunday). The believing Jews would worship in the Synagogues along side the non-believing Jews on Shabot and continue on in celebration of Christ until Sunday afternoon. Then they continued daily in fellowship after that. When the unbelieving Jews got tired of the believers (minim) in their services (this was after the destruction of the Temple) under Rabban Gamaliel II there was a question asked if anyone knew a way to deal with the Christian heretics (minim), they found one, and its known as the Birkat ha Minim (12th ben.). It was an added benidiction that was recited by the Jews in the synagogues. Believing Jews had to endure synagogue services that essentially cursed them! Here is what it reads:

'for apostates (meshumaddim) let there be no hope, and the dominion of arrogance, do thou speedily root out, in our days; and let Nozrim (Believers) and minim perish in a moment, let them be blotted out of the living and let them not be written with the righteous'. (Cairo Genizah Version)

This is one of the things that caused the split between the Believing Jews and the non-believers. Once these things became known in the Church apart from the believing Jews an overall hostility began to develop towards the Jews as a whole that unfortunately carried over into Church (Justin Martyr is a prime example). Soon Sabbath would be cut from celebration and deemed as Judaizing. This was a reactionary move more than a Biblical one.


Yet to this day we enjoy what we know as "The weekend." It begins Friday night and ends Sunday night. If a Christian wants to rest Saturday he can do that. If he or she wants to work (wants to work :-?) they can do that also. Yet, Sunday is rarely a day of rest for me. It is a very busy day generally.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/30 8:14Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Quote:
It is my understanding that the early Church (1st Century), which was comprised exclusively of Jews (up to Acts 10, roughly 10-15 years) and added Gentiles from Acts 10 to the present, celebrated BOTH Sabbath and the first day of the week (Sunday). The believing Jews would worship in the Synagogues along side the non-believing Jews on Shabot and continue on in celebration of Christ until Sunday afternoon.


Hi Robert
As many of the early Christians outside the Land were gentile slaves it is unlikely that they kept either day as a 'sabbath'. The meeting at Troas clearly took place during the night when it would have been easier for slaves to gather when their days work was done.
The reference to Troas in Acts 20 makes it sound as though the pattern was to meet on the first day of the week; [b]On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.[/b] (Act 20:7 NASB) It is likely that Paul began this dialogue late in the evening of the first day, Sunday.
The Corinthian reference in a letter which was expected to be read elsewhere (1 Cor 1:2) certainly sounds as though the pattern for the whole church was to meet on the first day;[b]On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.[/b] (1Co 16:2 NASB)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/30 8:51Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As many of the early Christians outside the Land were gentile slaves it is unlikely that they kept either day as a 'sabbath'. The meeting at Troas clearly took place during the night when it would have been easier for slaves to gather when their days work was done.



I don't at all disagree. I really just wanted to place things into the broader context to see how it all plays out.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/30 8:56Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
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 Another man esteemeth all days...

Romans 14:1-23 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubtethis damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/11/30 12:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Another man esteemeth all days...

Quote:
The Creator sanctified the seventh day sabbath from the creation of the world. He wrote the ten commandments with his own finger in stone. Man doesn't have the authority to change the sabbath. In fact, many have strained to attempt to prove that the New Testament believers did so.

The day is of no significance to me as with several others who have written, but the point of alteration of the 10 commandments is significant. Did you realise that Paul altered another one?

This is the original;
[b] Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long [u]upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee[/u]. [/b] (Exo 20:12 KJV)
… now here is Paul’s version…
[b] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou [u]mayest live long on the earth[/u]. [/b] (Eph 6:2-3 KJV)

The original was Land focussed. It was part of the tenancy agreement between Jehovah (Israel’s personal name for God) and a people described as [b] I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [/b] (Exo 20:2 KJV) The 10 commandments are a legal document with very carefully defined ‘parties’. This is part of a covenant between Jehovah and the Exodus people.

The inward essence of the 10 words however, is wider than Israel, and so Paul ‘alters’ it to make it relevant to folk who live in Ephesus who were never in bondage in Egypt. The ‘truth’ is captured but the localised details of the 10 commandments were Israel-specific. Paul take’s Moses’ promise of lasting tenancy of a specific territory – the Land always means the Promised Land in this sense – and transposes its abiding significance into a promise of longevity. Paul has transposed the truth that was originally given in a particular local setting into a universal context.

This is what we should look for in a universal application of the Jewish Sabbath. The Sabbath, in fact, was the key identifier of the Sinai Covenant. Circumcision was older than Sinai, but the specific keeping of the Sabbath was the one unique feature of this Covenant.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/30 16:26Profile





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