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One of the problems is that OJ does not understand the difference between known and unknown sin, willful and unwillful sin or deliberate and undeliberate sin.

That was a good Rumsfeld imitation with the “known unknowns” and the “unknown unknowns”, but the fact of the matter is that here is all that I need to know about it. James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all”. It doesn’t really matter if it is known or unknown.
“At the very same time I can honestly say I have no willful, unrepentant, deliberate sin in my life and do not live a life style of willful sin - for example - I do not lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get drunk, fornicate, etc and I do not willfully transgress the law.”

See above


 2011/4/23 11:09

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA


Good points from Patrick. I'm reminded of one of Paul Washer's quotes, "If you don't have a new relationship with sin you don't have a new relationship with God."

Regarding the difference between willful and unwillful sin Hebrews 10:26-27 comes to mind, "26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

For me this will probably be my last post on this thread and topic for now, as I feel I've said a lot and shared many Scriptures, much of which OJ seems to be deliberately ignoring and rejecting. But notice I said "probably" okay :)


BTW, I know I may have seemed somewhat harsh toward OJ in some of my posts on this thread and topic. I guess I see it as contending for the true Gospel against a false and deceptive one. OJ, I really do hope the best for you spiritually.


 2011/4/23 12:07Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2024

 Re: sinner or righteous

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

OJ said,

"Until you learn the difference between “being righteous” and “being counted righteous” you simply cannot exist."

OJ also said,

"...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous."

From your testimony one can't but conclude that not only are there none who exist who are 'actually righteous', but that there are none who exist who are 'actually sinners'.

God's testimony above, in Romans 5:19 says otherwise. It says that those who are in Adam are constituted sinners,and those who are in Christ are constituted righteous. We are actually sinners in God's sight in Adam, and we are actually righteous in God's sight in Christ.

You OJ, bring your own testimony by your words "...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous",attempting to make a third category of men,or rather taking away from God's testimony of the redeemed, by undermining and twisting the words of scripture, and attempting to remove the efficacy of the work accomplished by Christ on the cross for His people.

I continue with God's testimony of those actually righteous and those actually sinners.

Matt 25:37,46 Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You; or thirsting, and gave You drink?...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.


Righteous - Strongs #G1342


equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

In these verses it does not state the ones 'being counted righteous', but 'the righteous'. But you again add to the Word of God your own twist.

Are you sinner or saint?
Are you ungodly or righteous?
Are you a goat or a sheep?
Are you in Adam or in Christ?

Are you in darkness or in light?
Are you a wise virgin or a foolish virgin?

Is Jesus your LORD or is satan?
Is God your Father or the devil?

In summary, the no-lordship teachers are guilty as charged, even as we read of those in Luke 19.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said to them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us... For I say to you, That to every one who hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away from him. But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 So He said to them, "A man of noble family travelled to a distant country to obtain the rank of king, and to return. And he called ten of his servants and gave each of them a pound, instructing them to trade with the money during his absence."Now his countrymen hated him, and sent a deputation after him to say, 'We are not willing that he should become our king.'...
'I tell you that to every one who has anything, more shall be given; and from him who has not anything, even what he has shall be taken away. But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"

Thus far you've not addressed any scripture I have posted on this thread. With the exception of Romans 8:29 in part where you merely glossed over the verse and skirted the issue.

I'd also like to comment that not only has OJ answered myself and others here with an arrogant spirit, but he's also misrepresented what I believe both;

Here: "Savannah’s response is in agreement with this[referring to Macarthur's quote denying the two natures in a believer]."

I do believe in the two natures in a believer.

And Here: "For this Romans 7 has to be adjusted to the life of a believer before conversion..."

I believe in Romans 7 Paul speaks on a personal level of the two natures in the believer (i.e. after conversion).

I've made myself clear regarding what I believe.
If I'm unclear anywhere I'd be glad to clarify.

 2011/4/24 1:17Profile



These be the words of the Almighty God, not Old Joe.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

One is only counted righteous through the righteousness of faith, you figure that out in Romans 4:3...his faith was counted unto him for righteousness....or again in verse 5...his faith is counted for righteousness... or again in verse 9 was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness, and summarily concluded as the righteousness of faith in verse 13. Now when you read the whole section together a few times it is pretty clear that Abraham himself was not righteous and had no inherent righteousness other than that imputed to him by faith without works (verse 6).

He came to God through Christ in the latter case below, not the former.

Luke 18:9-14

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Now with regards to the two natures of man, by claiming that you are righteous you have refused to own your fallen nature. In essence you have said that others might have one, but you don't.

As said before

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one


 2011/4/24 10:34



I can guarantee you that you have sinned willfully in some manner after your profession of salvation. In such case as you interpret it, all hope would then be lost for you.

But thanks be to God that the willful sin in Hebrews 10:26-27 is the only damning sin, which is persistant unbelief. For all other sin "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". And were it not so, who could stand?

In the likely event that you don't believe me, here is a reference to Matthew Henry for you. ;-)

Hebrews 10:19-39

1. From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,—despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,—and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num 15:30,31. They were to be cut off.


 2011/4/24 17:36

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


I posted this in the other Lordship thread but noticed the dialogue stopped there and saw this one still going so I am reposting what I said in the other thread in hopes of adding to this discussion in this thread.

I have been really thinking hard on this whole think one post of OJ that I agreed with was the one where he quotes H.A. Ironside. The Gospel, to me, is nothing I have gained nor deserved. There is nothing I can do to acquire Salvation other than Believe, Fear, and tremble at the awesomeness and Holiness of our God. BUT at the same time with my belief comes reaction to that belief, a belief isn't much of a belief if it doesn't cause a response or reaction in your daily life.

Repentance to its Greek word Metanoya literally means a "Change of Mind" When I hear that Christ died for my sins and through His sacrifice and the Work of the Cross I can not only be forgiven but also redeemed my first reaction and change of mind should be away from the thing my Saviour died for. If you truly believe the Gospel you will truly appreciate what Christ has done for you from this everything you do for Christ and In Christ is done "not of my self" but flows out of a heart of gratitude rather than Labor.

All we have to do is believe :) Simple enough right? The real question that we need to ask though is does my Faith do something, ie does it work? If I believe there is a monster under my bed, I mean truly believe! Then I will react, by being scared, by having my wife check under the bed, by using a nightlight, etc. For salvation it is all the same this is the kind of belief Christ speaks of a belief and heart that RESPONSE to the call of Salvation.

When Peter tells the crowds "Repent" he is saying change your mind at about this Good News, its really true! In Jewish tradition and sacrifice the animal sacrifices could only cover up sin BUT Christ did something far greater He took sin upon Himself and removed yours and my sin. That's not just Good News but GREAT News! However for the average Jew this was an abomination to say someone died as a sacrifice for Sin. But the Gospel is just that and through Him we now have access to the Father, not according to how much we have laid down, or how holy we appear but according to the Work of Christ, I stand on Nothing less but Jesus Christ and His Righteousness! :) I really don't know how much I have added or taken away from this thread but I do hope I have added.

This is how I see the Gospel a devoted life is simply the side-effects of Belief, so to speak.

Matthew Guldner

 2011/4/25 1:30Profile

 Re: What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But thanks be to God that the willful sin in Hebrews 10:26-27 is the only damning sin, which is persistant unbelief.

Why would unbelief be the ONLY 'damning sin', when unbelief is, later in Hebrews 'the sin which doth so easily beset [us],', which we are being exhorted to lay aside, as well as 'every [other] weight'.

Why would it not be what Jesus calls the unforgivable sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (That seemed to come pretty easily to the lips of the Pharisees he was speaking to.)

Mark 3
23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

 2011/4/25 6:27

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jesus is speaking here of complete and deliberate disbelief and then accrediting the Good things of the Holy Spirit, the Power of Healing, to Satan and his demons. In their deliberate disbelief they called what was UNDENIABLY GOD, a work of Satan. This is the Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, to completely and utterly deny the very obvious before you and calling God's undeniable work Satan's work. It stems from willful disbelief and it is willful disbelief that is the slippery slope of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

*Edited for Grammar*

Matthew Guldner

 2011/4/25 6:44Profile

 Re: What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

the slipper slop

Please could you interpret for me?

(Two-nations-separated-by-a-common-language strikes again!)


 2011/4/25 6:54

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


LOL I meant to say slippery slope, I work the graveyard shift at my work and sometimes my brain doesn't type what I want it to thus causing some confusion. My apologies :)

Matthew Guldner

 2011/4/25 7:15Profile

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