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 What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

Continuing the discussion on Lordship Salvation from the closed thread on an unnamable preacher.

It centers around what the gospel is, and for background I would like to put forward the following by H.A. Ironside.


http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/whatisgospel.html

"The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past."

"Look at the result of believing the Gospel. Go back to verse two, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." That is, if you believe the Gospel, you are saved; if you believe that Christ died for your sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again, God says you are saved. Do you believe it? No man ever believed that except by the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of God that overcomes the natural unbelief of the human heart and enables a man to put his trust in that message. And this is not mere intellectual credence, but it is that one comes to the place where he is ready to stake his whole eternity on the fact that Christ died, and was buried, and rose again. When Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED" the work of salvation was completed. A dear saint was dying, and looking up he said, "It is finished; on that I can cast my eternity." Upon a life I did not live, Upon a death I did not die; Another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity." Can you say that, and say it in faith?"

OJ

 2011/4/23 0:52
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2021


 Re: What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation



Re: 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'

OJ,

Would you please comment upon the following verses as they relate one to another within the scheme of your 'no-lordshipness'.

Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Has He predestinated and called us 'to be conformed to the image of His Son' in our glorification only,that is in our glorified bodies in the glorified state when mortality puts on immortality,or is it to be here and now through His sanctification of us,Him working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure?

Thanks.

Worship God.

________________________________________________________

To which you replied OJ,

Savannah

Sure I will comment if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life.

___________________________________________________________

To which I replied,

Re: Loved,Redeemed,Adopted

Thanks for replying to me OJ.

Thanks as well for your patience with me and the others on this forum as you've been bombarded with questions.

Re: "...if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life."

I'd be glad to entreat you, as I attempt to answer your query,although you've not commented upon the two verses quoted in my prior post,but you stated that you intend to do so,and I have no reason to doubt you.

My following confession is an experiential fact. That being, that I DO NOT 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. Neither in word,deed,thought or attitude.

This being so makes me no less loved,redeemed,adopted, or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in Christ, by God the Father's distinguishing predestinating grace.

Eternally loved in Christ before time began.
Redeemed and adopted in time.

Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ,He owns me. He is my LORD. Adopted into His family as a son He disciplines me as it seems best to Him. Being judiciously justified by grace through faith, I am being relationally sanctified by that same grace through that same faith.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your error is in equating that any or all who are His 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him', with Lordship Salvation, as it has been called.

As a result of the view of semi-pelagianism which was/is held by many, many concluded that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. Such is not the case,nor do any I know of who teach what is called 'Lordship Salvation' believe this to be so. But rather believe that Salvation is of the LORD,as well as sanctification and preservation.

Lordship Salvation as it is called, is nothing less than a Biblical conversion of a sinner made a saint. Lordship Salvation as it is called,rejects both semi-pelagianism and sinless perfection.

To further answer your question,I am being conformed to His image by His grace,putting into practice what I believe in my day to day life by His grace,even as the Hebrews passages I quoted above make it abundantly clear.

I've answered to the best of my tainted ability. I hope I've clarified it somewhat for you that you may now be better prepared to give an answer to those verses I mentioned. And now if you would,please include how the Hebrews verses would relate as well.

1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.


Thanks again.

Worship God.

________________________________________________________

May we now continue...

Soli Deo Gloria


 2011/4/23 0:58Profile









 Re:

Savannah

Quote:
My following confession is an experiential fact. That being, that I DO NOT 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. Neither in word,deed,thought or attitude.



This is a frank confession, and is true of all of us. But you see in relating that to the verses in question we find there is a time coming when all who are in Christ will be entirely conformed to his image. No living believers are entirely conformed to the image of Christ because we all carry about our bodies the marks of this death. This old nature we still have causes all of us to not “do ALWAYS those things that please Him”, and if we do not always those things that please Him we not only break the smallest of the commandments, but we are guilty of them all (James 2:10). What boast then do any of us have? None, save in Christ. Anything done in me or through me did not begin with me, but was given to me, and if given to me what boast is there of some level of practical holiness or conformity of image that I have attained? NONE!

My hope and assurance are not placed in any evidences I see in myself, these are placed the promises of God alone.

Now Savannah, we know that Christ died for the ungodly, are you ungodly?

OJ

 2011/4/23 1:05
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

OldJoe

Quote:
LS fails at its denial of the two natures of a regenerate man, and propogates the one nature heresy entirely denying that the old nature of man still exists in the regenerate. If the old nature is missing, whence cometh this war in our souls?



Not so, we do not deny the war between the flesh and the Spirit within us. But we reject the excuse that is made for an unrepentant sinful lifestyle on account of that truth of that war. Many twist the Scriptures with regard to the war in the true believer's life between flesh and Spirit. They say in essence, "Since we have two natures it is possible to completely give in to the sinful nature and still be saved, as long as we are trusting in Christ for salvation." They see bondage to the power of sin as a possible normal part of a Christian's life. Yet that goes completely against the clear teaching of God's Word. Romans 6:1-7 declares, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

Here is an article I came across which I thought explains the war between flesh and Spirit well:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC0QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotquestions.org%2Ftwo-natures.html&ei=ImqyTYWmAoiosAO8-aDnCw&usg=AFQjCNH0xeaEg5afSpZoQjZrsF5Abej1mA&sig2=tXdPLmXQwqSxGFivF0P75g

Quote:
Solomon was saved from his youth, and yet fell into idolatry of the worst kind towards the end of his life, but this man was chosen to pen several books of the Bible. There is no such thing as loss of salvation, yet the life of Solomon blows up the doctrine of Lordship Salvation.



You are using the example of an Old Testament saint who fell into sin as an excuse for unrepentant, willful sin in the life of a Christian. I don't think that is very wise.

Quote:
The new nature is imparted, yet the old nature remains. The new nature is owned by Christ, the old nature is all that I can claim that I am, all new is of CHrist. This is why it is important to see that we are ungodly, that is all that we can claim of ourselves. The Christian is counted righteous for Christ's sake, and is counted godly for Christ's sake, but these things belong to Christ and are merely imputed to us by faith.



To a certain degree I would agree with your statements there. In and of ourselves we are all as an unclean thing. with no righteousness of our own. Righteusness is imputed to us by faith for Christ's sake. The problesm with your statement is that you seem to deny the practical righteousness wrought in us by the Holy Spirit. Not only do we have a foreign imputed righteousness from God by faith, but also a practical outworking of righteousness in and through us by the Spirit. That is the process of sanctification.

Quote:
So I ask, since "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?



Yes, in and of myself I am the chief of sinners. But blessed be God that He chose me before the foundation of the world to be comformed to the image of His Son(Rom.8:29)and to be holy and blameless before Him(Eph.1:4). I cannot deny that He has done a miraculous work in and through my life. All glory goes to Him for that. It is a reality in the life of every true believer in Christ. Though we may stumble daily He continues to discipline us as a loving Father, and shape us and mold us into His image.

Also, in the sight of God I am no longer ungodly, but a saint. You can see this throughout the New Testament. God no longer sees us as guilty sinners but as saints for Christ's sake.

Many make excuses for living habitually after the flesh, to their own destruction.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."(Galatians 6:7-8)


_________________
Oracio

 2011/4/23 2:01Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2021


 Re: are you ungodly

OJ,

You ask, "are you ungodly?"

You ask in the present tense. Therefore I answer no.

I was one of the ungodly for whom Christ died.
But I am now a new creation in Christ.
I am one to whom the epistles are addressed:

Rom. 1:7 ...beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

1 Cor. 1:2,3...to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place--both theirs and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

2 Cor. 1:1,2 ...with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Eph 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Philippians 1:1,2 Paul and Timotheus, servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with overseers and ministrants; Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother,to the saints in Colossae, and to the faithful brethren in Christ: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Jude 1:1,2 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

I am a saint and no longer a sinner.
In Adam I was a sinner and I died as such.
In Christ I am now a saint who has been raised and made alive. A new creation.

The Word of God tells us who we were and who we are.
I am now in the number of the redeemed men.
Not in the number of the ungodly and sinners.

Psalms 1:1-6 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, having been stored up by the same Word, are being kept for fire to a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Jude 1:14,15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No! I am not ungodly nor am I a sinner,any longer.
I am a righteous saint.
My LORD and my Redeemer has told me so and made me so!

Worship God.

 2011/4/23 2:07Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

One of the problems is that OJ does not understand the difference between known and unknown sin, willful and unwillful sin or deliberate and undeliberate sin. There is also a drastic difference between a lifestyle of sin or a moment of imperfection of the flesh. I can certainly say that I have repented and turned from all deliberate, willful, known sin and have given up a lifestyle of sin. At the same time I can say that I have areas in my life which fall short of the perfection of Christ and would be considered sin. I also most certainly inadvertently sin upon occasion as I am going through the life long process of sanctification being molded into the image of Christ. For example, I may have unknown areas of pride, jealousy or lack of faith in my heart all of which are considered sin, but none of which would be considered willful transgression of the law. I may also inadvertently get angry or say an unkind word to my wife or speak harshly to a co-worker in frustration. All of the above examples would be considered unknown or unwillfull or undeliberate sin When this sin occurs in my life or God reveals areas of imperfections of the flesh I am quick to repent and turn from them out of love for my Lord and Savior. At the very same time I can honestly say I have no willful, unrepentant, deliberate sin in my life and do not live a life style of willful sin - for example - I do not lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get drunk, fornicate, etc and I do not willfully transgress the law. This will help when OJ or others try to point out imperfections and unwillful sin as a argument that one does not have to turn from sin as a requirement of salvation. Also, make sure that the definition of sin OJ is using is "willful transgression of the law" and not the definition of "anything that falls short of the perfection of Christ and glory of God" make sure you hold him to the first definition and his argument and theology will start to crumble and fall apart. The only way his argument can hold up is if he uses the latter definition and tries to blur the clear and biblical differences between willful and un-willful sin.

We also must realize that Jesus many times put requirements on salvation and the requirement was always to lay everything down for him and make Him Lord of our life. The rich young ruler, peal of great price, treasure in the field, pick up you cross, deny self, let the dead bury the dead, hate mother father etc. just to name a few. Just like in the case of the rich young ruler when Jesus told him "one thing you lack" in order to receive salvation. Jesus pointed out what he was putting his trust in and required him to lay it down in order to receive salvation. Jesus does the same thing today - He requires us to lay everything down (out of love, not as a way to work our way to or to earn salvation) as a requirement for salvation, just like He did with the rich young ruler. The thing that OJ's opinions will prevent him from understand is that this is also a sanctification process as well as a initial event. So for instance, when I was saved I absolutely laid everything down out of love for Jesus and made Him Lord of my life, but since then He has revealed and put His finger on numerous other areas and things in my life and heart that I have given up and lay down for Him because I love Him and desire nothing more then to be pleasing to Him - and I can absolutely guarantee that over the rest of my life there will be plenty more things that the Holy Spirit reveals. With that being said, at this time, I have no areas of my life that I currently know of that I have not laid down or are un-surrendered to Christ.

OJ has some WONDERFUL things to say and is REALLY on the right track! I also agree with him that MANY who preach what he would refer to as "lordship" salvation do so in an unbiblical and legalistic way. With that being said there are still somethings that he needs to understand and he cannot reconcile his opinions with the WHOLE council of God.

I really hope this helps the discussion! I have very little time to chime in but this is an extremely important topic and I want to help bring clarity to the discussion. 1. Just make sure that the differences between willful and unwillful and known and unknown sin are always keep clearly defined. 2. Also, make sure that the definition of sin is always kept at "willful transgression of the law" and NOT "anything that fall short of the perfection of Christ and the glory of God". 3. And lastly always clearly define repentance, turning from sin and making Jesus Lord of our life not only as an initial event but a life long process of sanctification. If you can do these three things it will prevent much confusion and help the discussion go much better.

When ever the word "sin" comes up in this thread ask the writer to please define as "known and/or willful sin" or "un-known and/or un-willful sin" also do the same when referring to "laying everything down for Jesus" or "Making Jesus Lord of your life.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2011/4/23 3:33Profile









 Re:

OJ,

Thanks for restarting this discussion. Am rather busy this weekend and it already looks like I am going to have a lot to catch up on.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.

Shalom,
A777

 2011/4/23 9:29









 Re: What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

I am in the process of responding to the responses thus far, but there is a large issue with the LS definition of repentance. Not so much the fruit of repentance but the root of it. For the record Ironside has another good book on repentance that I would like to put forth as well.

Link to whole book here
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/excepttoc.html

An excellent chapter here (recommended read for all who participate in this discussion).
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/except2.html


OJ

 2011/4/23 9:32









 Re:

Oracio

Your article on the two natures of man is at least balanced, but I have been there many times and expect that from that site. Bear in mind they do not hold to literal LS view neither.

When one looks at the LS perspective something entirely different is presented. Here is Macarthur denying the two natures in a believer, other unmentionable LS preachers agree with him.

“I believe it is a serious misunderstanding to think of the believer as having both an old and new nature. Believers do not have dual personalities...there is no such thing as an old nature in the believer" (Freedom From Sin--ROMANS 6-7, Moody Press, pp. 31-32).

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

That statement is the required conclusion of LS doctrine, and shows “ye know not what manner of spirit ye are”. The denial of the existence of the old nature of man in the believer is ultimately required to hold to an LS perspective. Savannah’s response is in agreement with this. For this Romans 7 has to be adjusted to the life of a believer before conversion or possibly just allow the possibility it as some kind of straw man, and Paul’s statement “Sinners of whom I AM Chief”, has to be either allegorized or tensed out. Also the doctrine of a carnal Christian in 1 Cor 3 has to be removed as well.

Quote:
You are using the example of an Old Testament saint who fell into sin as an excuse for unrepentant, willful sin in the life of a Christian. I don't think that is very wise.


The old testament saints are our examples (1 Cor 10:11, Rom 15:4)
Quote:
Not only do we have a foreign imputed righteousness from God by faith, but also a practical outworking of righteousness in and through us by the Spirit. That is the process of sanctification.


It is the process of sanctification, and yes it is in us through Christ by the Holy Spirit, but it is not US.

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE [emphasis added]

If you are to claim that you are doing the good, or that you are even somewhat righteous that is patently false.
Quote:
Also, in the sight of God I am no longer ungodly, but a saint.


That was a reasonable answer until here, and should read “Also, in the sight of God, not only am I ungodly, but I am also counted a saint for Christ’s sake”
Quote:
Many make excuses for living habitually after the flesh, to their own destruction.


I never make an excuse for sin, and I will soon challenge you in that regard, but I also don’t downplay the reality of it in a believer’s life neither. Not only do we commit sin, but we “are sin” (2 Cor 5:21). Christ was made to be what we are, so that we could be made to be what he is through imputation. If our old nature still exists after we are saved (and it does), that is what we are! And if the new nature that is imparted to us exists after we are saved, it is His nature, we just get to ‘borrow’ it as it were by imputation. All that we can claim to be is with Paul, "sinners of whom I AM (present tense) chief".

OJ

 2011/4/23 10:32









 Re:

Savannah

Quote:
No! I am not ungodly nor am I a sinner, any longer.
I am a righteous saint.



I applaud you for answering in true LS style. You believe that your old nature is dead, and that all that you are now perfectly righteous. The problem is that according to the Bible, you do not exist. It very clearly says “there is none righteous, no, not one”

It does say that “faith is counted for righteousness” (Rom 4:5), and that all men that are looked upon as righteous are counted so due to the righteousness of faith, but it clearly says that none are actually righteous. It is just like there are none worthy (Rev 5:4), but some are counted worthy (Luke 21:36, 2 The 1:5)

Until you learn the difference between “being righteous” and “being counted righteous” you simply cannot exist.


OJ

 2011/4/23 10:53





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