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Discussion Forum : General Topics : A New Wineskin?

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dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 The seniment is understandable

I understand the heart, however to digress(boy do i need a spell checker) would be to make a grave error.I understand your heart on worship but may I make a few observations and comments about the church. Worship isn't someting we simply do , it's something we simply are.The very heart of Rom12 is that we ---our very lives, the things we say and do are a worship unto God.Secondly,God is a God of order and therefore at some point someone will have to take leadership and keep everyone in subjection to ~~~~~The Word of God~~~~sorry, but the whole of anything to do with God will center around His written Word. Experiences come and go---but his word will endure forever.I understand the whole raised platform bit and centeralized pulpit dissatisfication but weather you or someone stand on level ground in front or in the middle or in the midst, someone will stand and if there's no basic structure you'll fall prey for every wind of doctrine and decieving voice that there is out there.Have your tent---keep your experiences---but don't throw out your head for your hearts sake.Thou has exalted your word above your name. We want the experiences but not the word. Your works are wonderful,God Bless you and keep you in them, but don't build a fellowship on anything except the word of God. I'm sure this will get me major flamed but---guys--all of you---love ya all so be gentle. God Bless Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2004/11/29 20:17Profile









 Re: Thank You Bro. Daryl

flame?.....for a prudent word of caution?

no. God bless you for that nugget of wisdom, and I agree 100%. If an ekklesia is based on anything other than the Word of God, its gonna go onto the rocks and shoals of error and disorder. Guaranteed.

Its funny, when you write something, you know whats in your heart, but sometimes one only conveys half the thought, and it would be easy to see how what I wrote would be construed as Holy Ghost fluff based on "feelings", and having a "good time in the Lord", y'know , where we all get on all fours bark like dogs, giggle like mental patients, making whooshing sounds, and "ahhhs" , and call that revival, or the "emerging church", when in reality its just immature no-pain weirdness masquarading as worship.

The Bible is honey to the soul, even the parts in Judges, that to me represent the absolute depth of the human experience as represented in Scripture, its all Honey and a Rock, and a Foundation that God's Church can be built upon.

The Bible, to me, is also a mystery document, and my favorite parts, are those where I cant really figure out EVERYTHING, where I have the freedom to say , "I don't know"...like the 2nd thru 4th verse of the 12th chapter of the 2nd Epistle to the Corinthians......"things that man is not permitted to tell".

I love that! what things? Oh Jesus, tell me in Heaven, please Lord. Mystery. Why do these pagans think they have a corner on mysticism? They have nothing! They have no Book, they are empty rain clouds. Why does the Dalai Lama get to be called a "holy man", and we have to dress (and think) like CEO's, and be "purpose driven"?

why???

I'm not talking about show now....y'know showtime, and purpose-driven eccentricity....I'm talking about the Lord Jesus of the Book....in His day, Jesus was so far outside the orthodoxy, yet He could pick up a Scroll of Isaiah and navigate thru it pretty adroitly, and then have dinner with the freaks and the unwashed and the prostitutes....and then wake up before dawn and go to a lonely place to pray by Himself.....

where has that gone in our lives?

I wanna be like Him. I think about Jesus, and I carry Him in my heart, Praise God...but I think about what it must have been to eat dinner with Him, what it must have been like to swear up and down TO HIS FACE that I would never deny Him, then to have Him look at me as I do deny Him, and then to have the resurrected Christ ask me , "Do you agape love me?".......oh man....this nail pierced heart......

sorry, I went off on a tangent...lol......God bless you for that word, and the advice of an elder.

In Him, Neil

 2004/11/30 1:12
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

Hi Neil,
Isn't Topanga around Malibu somewhere? I live in San Pedro, on the harbor. I love San Pedro dearly. People here are working class types and quite down to earth. We're still in California, though, so there's still the weird Cali thing... You know... What I love most about California is the vast array of different kinds of people and the relative harmony that they all live in. However, this open-mindedness tends to lend itself to beind so open-minded that the brain falls out! :)

I see your heart for finding true worship of the living God. I have to check myself for being too dogmatic lately. There's so many gimics and fads, and I'm so tired of them all! It's like we don't have the presence of God, so we have to make up something to do. Enough already! No more campaigns or six weeks of this or that! All we need is Jesus!
Phebe


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Phebe

 2004/12/3 2:28Profile









 Hi Phebe

Yes , Topanga is up by Malibu, and as I wrote before its a old hippie town, now bedroom yuppie community.

I agree with you on gimmicks and fads. Right now we worship in the home of a 79 year old Spirit filled widow by the name of Miriam. They'll be maybe 15 to 20 people on the Lord's day, and there were three tonight at the Thursday evening intercessory prayer meeting, Miriam, (aka Mimi) Pastor Bob, and myself. God blessed me with a weeping ministry tonight, I was asking Him to help me get more caught up in High places with Him, and to resist the flesh. All day long that concept, "to be caught up in High Places with God", has been running in soul, and God has me reading Isaiah 55 over and over again.

I was asking Him, what it means to be a "mystic",and thats what He showed me, ....Isaiah 55.

If you ever desire to worship at the house church that meets at Mimi's, drop me a line...or if you could be so kind, please get on your knees and ask God to send the Fire down on Topanga..Holy Ghost Fire. All it takes is one person locked up in their room for one hour, and you could change history here. There are 13,000 people plus here taking a walk down the causeway to hell, and they dont even know the danger they are in. Thats the sad part, they have NO idea, because there are pastors within this canyon, pastors with a pulpit who will never mention the danger that an unsaved sinner faces, and furthermore, you will never hear an invitation from these pastors to drink of the Living Water...there's a hillside, facing the towns main highway,(20,000 cars a day) and I will post signs on this hillside that the drivers can read: I heard the Holy Spirit telling me to put one in there that reads "PRAY", but I almost feel like putting , "YUR FACING HELL"on that mountainside ....but I gotta do what God says.

He also told me to write a letter to one of this towns pagan shaman's, (not kidding) and asking him who he serves. Oh I'm postively tired.

Good night and God bless you is my prayer.

Neil

 2004/12/3 4:26
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Neil,

In regards to:

Quote:
Its funny, when you write something, you know whats in your heart, but sometimes one only conveys half the thought,



Very true and thus the patience with each other here. As to the rest of this particular reply...
I am glad for one you went off on a little tangent, this has put one of these :-P on my face this morning.

Quote:
I love that! what things? Oh Jesus, tell me in Heaven, please Lord. Mystery. Why do these pagans think they have a corner on mysticism? They have nothing! They have no Book, they are empty rain clouds. Why does the Dalai Lama get to be called a "holy man", and we have to dress (and think) like CEO's, and be "purpose driven"?


Me too brother, thank God we can't 'figure everything out'...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/12/3 9:59Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

Hey Neil,
Mmmm... Thinking about going to Topanga and checking it out one of these days...

That's interesting about Mimi. Actually, the people that I feel the most spiritually close to in church are a couple in their 80's. They love Jesus so much and believe so firmly in the Holy Spirit's power. Maybe their generation knew something of God that we've missed--or maybe it's just walking with God for so many years...

I will be praying for you guys. God is able. It would be so discouraging if we were just trying to keep people from going to hell, but thank goodness we are serving the living God! May He have all the rewards of His suffering! I know He is finding that reward in you, and may He find it in many more there as you go and make disciples.

Phebe

P.S. I couldn't help but note the "purpose-driven" comment. So I'm not the only one that is irked by the Purpose Driven Campaign? My church just finished it. I feel guilty because it seems almost everyone else was really blessed and helped by it. Every time it came up, I felt like I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I honestly don't know why. I know that personally God didn't want me to do the purpose-driven deal at this point in time, but do you think that's because there's something really the matter with it or because that's just what God wanted for me?


_________________
Phebe

 2004/12/3 11:51Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:Late in responding

Sorry I'm so late in responding. I'll wait on the Lord and see if he moves me to intercessory prayer on behalf of your and your community, however, it seems to me that your the instrument Jesus wants to use.Just seek,knock and ask. God Bless


_________________
D.Miller

 2004/12/6 0:55Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi Phebe,

Quote:
P.S. I couldn't help but note the "purpose-driven" comment. So I'm not the only one that is irked by the Purpose Driven Campaign? My church just finished it. I feel guilty because it seems almost everyone else was really blessed and helped by it. Every time it came up, I felt like I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I honestly don't know why. I know that personally God didn't want me to do the purpose-driven deal at this point in time, but do you think that's because there's something really the matter with it or because that's just what God wanted for me?


Well...
If you do a search on 'Purpose Driven' here, there was quite a bit of discussion about the whole thing, both pro and con. Most found it at least somewhat problematic for various reasons. I can't really put my finger on it other than to say that it seems muddy as to whether the 'purpose' is geared more towards ourselves and what's in it for us, or towards God's purpose.

I still get the same feeling whenever this comes up as you do even though I went through the book awhile back in a bible study. It's been awhile now and don't recall much from it or what I may have learned. I don't think it's all bad, but there is a certain 'something' about the whole thing. Maybe that word 'Campaign'...Maybe it's that the vast majority in Christendom has embraced it without much question...The finer points have been discussed and broken down in previous threads.

Think there is a much better way, it's already been done before and stated in a much more beneficial way, I couldn't recommend this book more highly;

*"Conformed To His Image"
Oswald Chambers

Here's an excerpt:

[u]Temperamental v. True Portrayl[/u]

[i]God so loved, so unsparingly,, as to do His Son's body and soul the injury of the Cross. That is the principle on which God's love dealt with the vast evil of the world. He reserved for Himself what He forbade Abraham to do.

Forsyth[/i]

"[i]Temperament:[/i] the way a person looks at life. My temperament is an inner disposition that influences my thoughts and actions to a certain extent, that is, I am either pessimistic or optimistic according to the way my blood circulates. It is an insult to take the temperamental line in dealing with a human being, "Cheer up, look on the bright side"; there are some types of suffering before which the only thing you can do is to keep your mouth shut. There are times when a person needs to be handled by God, not by his fellow man, and part of the gift of human wisdom is to know how to be reverent with what he does not understand."

Oswald Chambers

*The copy I have is actually two books together, the other being "The Servant As His Lord [i](Lessons on Living Like Jesus)[/i]" About 200 pages in all.

You might say book #1 is 'purpose' and book #2 is 'driven'... :-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/12/6 8:56Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

I have recently been voraciously reading Oswald Chambers and listening to David Wilkerson. "Purpose Driven" looks very anemic next to both of those. I have read alot of Conformed to His Image. Thanks for the reply.

Perhaps I cannot stand "Purpose Driven" because it does seem to be very much without the power or mystery of God. It seems like it's true, but a truth that is weak and sick and about to fall asleep, or at least I almost fell asleep watching the videos.

I cannot say that I disagree with any of it, though. Some people in my church really did draw near to Him through it all and I am grateful for that.

I hosted one of the small groups (out of respect to my pastor) during the "campaign". The material was not so bad, but so--"pale" is the word that keeps coming to mind. I had twenty-something people sitting in my living room talking about their purpose in life (working with kids, being a mom, etc) and I just wanted to scream. I did bring up the fact that all of our purposes are supposed to be only to glorify Christ and give Him the reward of His suffering. There were some who got it, but most looked at me blankly.

I do admit that most of my annoyance is simply because I tend to be a non-conformist, which is not always good. If I see "Purpose Driven" outside of every other church in town, it makes me just loathe it when our church jumps on the band-wagon.

"Purpose Driven" has driven me to Christ in the since that I have cried out "God there's more! There must be more than this!" and thank goodness, there is!

Phebe

PS I really ought to qualify this by saying that I have not read the book. I started to and then felt very strongly that that was NOT what God wanted me to do at the time. I had already read the first part and it about gagged me anyway... I attended a seminar on "how to do the campaign at your church" with some pastors from my church. I think I went with a fairly open mind, but was really turned off by the talk about growing your church exponentially. It was like they were saying "we'll send God-in-a-box to your church and He will grow you exponentially."


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Phebe

 2004/12/8 13:42Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: what do you think??

Doesn't it seem that in the church of Jesus Christ there seems to be one thing after another---like the purpose driven life. Then for awhile all is well until another wave of something comes down the pike. I don't feel these programs are bad in and of themselves personally but it seems that much of the church needs these things to keep them focused or something, almost like just a simple walk of love and devotion and obedience to Jesus and his teachings isn't enough.I once heard a pastor say if the cross of Jesus doesn't motivate you he can't,I incert nothing can.


_________________
D.Miller

 2004/12/9 0:26Profile





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