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 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan



Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I don't want us to fall out over this discussion. Please know that I love you, and did not start this thread for a fight.

Quote:
I'm wondering why you think Jesus gave power to His disciples, and authority in His name to us, to cast out demons, if it never needs to be done for anyone?

You have made clear you don't think a Christian ever needs to be delivered from the attentions of an evil spirit, and, that a person who becomes a Christian didn't need deliverance beforehand because once the Holy Spirit comes in they are automatically freed from and protected in future from all demonic influences, so... for what purpose is the part of the authority of the Son of God, to cast out demons, given the Church today?

Quote:
if you check Strong's definition, it can be "mental disposition".

I sometimes think Strong's skirts round the truly spiritual explanations of Greek and Hebrew words. I've not heard others say this, but I see it from time to time in his choice of the English language. What does Strong MEAN by 'mental disposition'... usual mood, attitude, conversation?

Really what I mean is, how do we know a wrong 'mental disposition' is NOT the result of sin, spiritual wounding, emotional trauma, or the demonic influences which can be ministered to a person (from babyhood onwards) by those with suitable access to them?

Quote:
It's when people have allowed themselves to have any confidence in themselves or have accepted a lie of Any sort - most especially doctrinal - that they open themselves up to demonic delusions - either delusions of grandour/ego or delusions about the supernatural type and such.

One of my influences is the book 'Delivered to Declare' by Gabriele Trinkle, who had been 'married to Satan' in a molesting ceremony (to which her parents agreed), when she was four years old. Until she was delivered over thirty years later, her life was a misery - although the Lord had drawn her to Himself, and saved her, and she had worked as a missionary in her home country, while yet fighting off continual spiritual attacks which had not been started by her own behaviour.

Quote:
For a "Christian" to open his mouth and a demon speaks - from where is that voice coming out of?

That kind of voice doesn't come from the Christian. If it doesn't come from the mouth at all, it's 'ventriloquism' - speaking from the stomach.

I've finished listening to the series now, and Jim Logan doesn't mention this specifically. I didn't hear anything I hadn't heard before, and was encouraged towards faith by his anecdotes, all the more because most of them were about people involved in full time ministry for Christ, or, their children (of different ages).

Part of the problem with the belief that the Holy Spirit non-specifically delivers all new Christians from all demonic influence which ever came upon their life, is that it takes no account of God's superior understanding of the reasons He allows them to stay, while waiting His time to stir up conflict with them through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

God has no intention of leaving the person in bondage, but He knows perfectly what lies ahead of them, and doesn't ask any of us to change everything all at once. Although some of us may think He did, I think we'll find if we consider carefully, that there was continuity somewhere in the way He led us. He is concerned to establish His relationship with us on the terms that it began, and see us grow. We may well need both spiritual strength and grace to pull down those strongholds and reclaim the ground our life had relinquished to sin (and adverse spiritual influences).

Surely there is enough in scripture which shows that although the children of Israel had left Egypt, Egypt was still in their hearts and minds? The battle for their souls mostly failed. The next generation who went into the land, many years later still had failed to drive out ALL opposing forces. The gospel proclaims to us the ultimate victory, but the battles still have to be fought, and won, the strongholds destroyed and obedience to truth satisfied.

We also have the picture of Jesus entering the Temple before it was cleansed, driving out everything that wasn't supposed to be there, forbidding anyone to come back with STUFF, and receiving the BLIND and the LAME INTO THE TEMPLE, and He healed them THERE.

The last, excellent Old Testament example is Josiah's renewal of the Covenant between God and Israel standing by a pillar IN the Temple.

THEN, and only then, did he order all the stuff for Baal worship to be taken OUT OF THE TEMPLE. 2 Kings 23.

 2011/4/21 17:38









 Re:

Falling outs and fights is not why I'm here Sis. I don't see discussions in that light at all.


I can't make this very long, but if you read my posts both on this thread and the link where I discuss this issue with "urbanus", you'll get the drift that I'm just opposed to the teaching that a Christian can be "demon possessed".
I've posted that more times than I can number.

Not a few of the illustrations that are used in this series are manifestations of 'possession'.

No need to persist in trying to convince me of one of the truths within the first two Bible verses I memorized when I first got saved and believe as strongly as any child would believe their loving trust-worthy Father....

Mar 16:17, 18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sis, I said earlier that my first course of study and ministry was in the area of demonology, so to waste time in believing that I don't see that deliverance is part of everyone's ministry is well, just that, a waste, when we could be getting straight to the point of what I do indeed believe instead.

Oppresion, persecution from, thorns in the flesh, temptations that are derived from our own lusts and so forth, of a Christian is Biblical .... Possession of Christians is not and just as Neil Anderson said himself - there's nothing in the N.T. to prove it ... but quite the contrary - there's plenty to prove otherwise.

No where in the Word of GOD will we find any verse that lays the blame of our own sin and ego on the devil.
I'm aware of Johanna Michaelson's experience and her stay with Francis Shaeffer after coming out of deep involvement with the occult - so yes, it takes time - but she was not "possessed".

When Legion answered Jesus out of the mouth of that man in the caves he wasn't using ventriloquism. The demons spoke through the man. That is what I'm familiar with when talking with those who are 'possessed', even those from churches that others thought were "saved". Counterfeit spirits can fool a whole Church into believing a person is saved when they're not.
Many in the easy-believism church - of which there are multiple thousands, are not truly saved and these are those who are being "possessed".

The difference in definitions with that word "spirit" is seen in one of the verses that 777 posted - that "GOD has not given us a spirit of "cowardice/timidity" but of love, power, and self-control or self-discipline."
This is where we see that "mental disposition" in the context of this verse would be a more suitable definition.

My last post on that previous page had plenty to do with the doctrines of those involved in "demonology". We have RCC priests doing exorcisms. We have those who do not have the baptism in His Spirit, who believe osas and pre-trib coming under severe attacks and turning to those who also believe as they do. There is a section of those who believe osas that are actually not saved - that have only made a mental-assent of Christ, thus "easy believism."
Yes, they are wide open to possession and yes I do question the beliefs/doctrines of those who are bringing them "deliverance" as well. I think that may have come across in my posts here and on the Freewill & Those Days thread also.
Doctrine matters to GOD.


Love & TTYA

 2011/4/21 19:10
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan

Quote:
Alive-to-God wrote:
Is anyone else listening to the series Greg posted here?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37212&forum=16&2

I wondered if so, whether it has altered your understanding or views, or, you're having to alter your theology to receive this man's testimony? Or, maybe you just plain disagree?


Alive-to-God,

I listened to the first one and like I said was amazed that someone not of the Pentecostal-like persuasion was teaching this! Praise God!

This reminds me of another book I bought by John A. MacMillian. He wrote it in 1932 and it is called “The Authority of the Believer.” Ironically he, too, wrote it after being a missionary (at age 42) in China and the Philippines.

Over the weekend, I will try to listen to the rest of Jim Logan’s Spiritual Warfare series. I would like to continue this conversation in more detail.

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/4/22 6:10Profile









 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan



Hi JiG,

Quote:
I'm just opposed to the teaching that a Christian can be "demon possessed".

I think this is the reason that in TrueWitness' post Jim Logan writes:

'My friend and fellow warfare counselor Neil Anderson says, "No question polarizes the Christian community more than this one, and the tragedy is that there is no absolutely biblical way to answer it."'

"Possession"

What Anderson means is that the New Testament does not directly answer the question of whether a Christian can be demon-possessed. That's because the New Testament doesn't really address the issue of demon possession, as we commonly think of it, in relation to the Christian.

In fact, the very term demon possession itself is part of the problem. It is used in most English versions of the Bible to translate a single Greek word - and it may not be the best translation at all. Tim Warner says:

The use of the word "possession" to translate the expressions used in the Greek New Testament to indicate the relationship between demons and people is unfortunate, if not unwarranted. We obtained our English word "demon" by transliterating the Greek word daimon. We should have done the same with the Greek word daimonizomai - a verb form of the same Greek root. It would then come into English as "demonize" and we could then speak of the degree to which a person could be demonized rather than being limited to the either-or options imposed by the possessed - not possessed view.'

I believe Warner is on target when he concludes, "Spiritual possession' clearly implies ownership and would seem to include the control of one's eternal destiny. [It] would be impossible to be owned and controlled by Satan and have a saving relationship with Christ at the same time. So if the question is, 'Can a Christian be demon-possessed?', THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY NO." '


He goes on to speak about 'influence', and in the talk series he eventually covers how that influence can manifest in a person's life, not always directly related to things the person has chosen to do, whether known sins at the time, or unknown-to-the-person sources of such influence.

What this means is that CHRISTIANS may need to be delivered from demonic 'influence' which it is beyond their personal understanding, or control, or power to lay hold of the answer in Christ on their own (at that time).

 2011/4/22 7:05









 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan


Hi Lysa,

I look forward to further discussion. I will probably listen to it all again, particularly to note the scriptures he mentions in one session.

Could I ask you to listen out for where he says 'this is the same [Greek] word as for 'armour' in Ephesians 6'. What was the Greek word please?

Many thanks.

I've got reading to do for an answer in another thread, first.

 2011/4/22 7:23









 Re:

Quote: "I believe Warner is on target when he concludes, "Spiritual possession' clearly implies ownership and would seem to include the control of one's eternal destiny. [It] would be impossible to be owned and controlled by Satan and have a saving relationship with Christ at the same time. So if the question is, 'Can a Christian be demon-possessed?', THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY NO." '"


Well, good for Warner. This is the same conclusion that anyone reading the Word of GOD should come to.

The link to that other thread on this topic in the middle of page 2 goes deeper still into the words connected to this, such as "cast out" - which is an activity that we read in His Word connected with those who have demons "in" them. Put those pieces together. That other thread is worth the read for anyone who ever gets into a bind of fear on this topic.
But most importantly - Where we stand IN Christ is the chiefest Study one should do and new converts need to be taught that first and foremost before they're given tons of sermons to listen to. New converts need to be grounded in His Word first so that they can discern truth from error and Know where they stand in Christ.

I have followed the stories of Missionaries most of my saved life. These testimonies that are reported in this series are not normal. Or should I say "The Normal Christian Life" of the 1000's of missionary stories we can read about through-out history!

When I was ministering to people being mentally tormented, GOD gives the gift of discerning of spirits for a reason. Also the gifts of a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom. All these gifts are part of ministry. Without them, people are playing guessing games with other people's minds at stake. I have little respect for those who believe that they are experts in any field regarding the mind without His aide for wisdom for each individual case. Only GOD knows the mind and life of another - and Scripture says, that we don't even know our own minds without Him shining His Light - whether by His Word that exposes the thoughts and intents of the heart or just a revelation of what our motives and so forth, are. Some people call it a subconcious, but we give that aspect a bit more credence than it deserves. We keep going outside of Scripture and taking in a bit of this or that of secular beliefs or extra-Biblical beliefs and that - especially in the area we're discussing - can be devastating, especially to new believers and the weak in Christ, as Paul tells us to deal gently with.

What our problem is, when we get into this area is, thinking that we can enter this without the gifts of the Spirit along with knowing His Word indepth and Knowing that, even which Scriptures are to be applied needs to come from Him.

The Apostles had "No Methods" - they leaned 100% on The Spirit of The LORD (Just as Jesus did) for Light, wisdom, words from Him on what they were dealing with and the "words to say" and the action to take - which Needs to be from GOD alone and Biblical.

To even begin to think about this topic, one must be sure that they are very well grounded in His Word or are counseling with someone who is definitely grounded in The Word first.

The Sceva brothers are just one example to be remembered. GOD will allow the person who feels that they, 'in themselves' are qualified to counsel anyone with mental anguish, to fall themselves, in order to get through to them that 'without Him we can do Nothing'.

This is not a psychologist office visit type ministry - where you just talk to find out what you believe is wrong with the person. Without the gifts and being very filled with His Word and 'In Truth' - the person, if helped at all, will only be helped temporarily.

Demonology is a topic that most schools of ministry do not enter until those in training are mature in His Word.

And the lies that are being taught in this area are all the more proof that New Christians need to be taught to get into the New Testament and KNOW it and to know where they/we stand in Christ and what playing what sin can do to anyone's walk - not even considering the demonic in that - but knowing how GOD feels Himself about rebellion being as the sin of witchcraft.

New converts need to understand first and foremost that their relationship with GOD is one of loving the LORD and having that desire to obey His Word is out of that Love - knowing even the enabling to obey and follow His Word is given to them of GOD. That He is The Good and gentle Faithful Shepherd of His Sheep.
The true convert, indwelt by His Spirit, has nothing whatsoever to fear. To fear is not of His Word.

A Christian who knows that they're living up to the light that they have, is called 'perfect' by GOD.

What I saw the most of and still see, are those who have believed incorrect teachings or have faulty personal beliefs about the power of demons with Christians.

The main thing that I dealt with is people's "imagination out of control" from believing things that are not Scriptural. Imagination, in and of itself can put someone in a mental institution - and that's one point we truly need to fully understand when dealing with others. Very important. Imagination is a powerful force that is triggered when a person begins to believe any lie. No lie is of the Truth.

Satan is the Father of lies - and in a Believer who is living up to the light that he has - the enemy can ONLY implant a thought in his mind that is a "lie" and if the believer believes this "lie" that contradicts the Truth of GOD's Word as far as Where we stand in Christ - then off they'll go into "fear". Satan rides on "fear" with glee and fear opens the mind to further thoughts that are "lies" and that cycle won't be broken until the 'first' lie received is exposed and dealt with, with His Word. That is all that Jesus used against lies and Satan's temptations.
If we come to fully 'understand' that the Word of GOD is the only True Truth in the universe and that it's 'Living' besides and our weapon of warfare, besides a lamp onto our feet and the light upon our paths - then any "lies" that the enemy or false teachers try to implant into our minds are counteracted by His Word.

There are people right now in mental institutions because of someone's false beliefs or practices in the area of demonology - and the blame many of the times is on the one who believed these false beliefs on demonology and then passed it to some poor victim who had only believed a lie in the first place that snowballed into full blown phobias or gave up in despair and gave themselves over to the dangerous ground of back-sliding out of that despair and then 'were' open to demonic influence - all because of a false view on this very topic we're discussing now.

Without the same gifts of the Spirit that we know the Apostles used in their ministry and being filled with a sound understanding of His Word and even dependent on Him to give us the correct Scriptures for each individual situation - we are arrogant fools to try to help those who are in mental anguish of any sort.

Yes, that part does raise a righteous indignation within me because of the many that were brought down by unwarranted fears and totally incapacitated to the point of helplessness and normally needing to resort to psychiatric help because of someone who decided it would be exciting to go into the Deliverance ministry. And I know that if it bothers me this much - I can only imagine GOD's anger at anyone hurting one of HIS little ones - and I don't mean just children in that term.

If we as a generation do not start pointing people to His WORD alone, we will stand before Him as the most guilty generation of all - "for to him that much is given - much is required."
And GOD help us if we ever hurt one of His with what we 'think' we know, that did not come from HIM or His Word (sound doctrine and led by dependence on His Spirit).
Yes Amen, GOD help us and humble us until we see that without You and Your Word we can do nothing except hurt ourselves and others and that you take that very seriously - in Jesus Name.

 2011/4/22 10:50









 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan



Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Thank you for your full reply and wisdom in this matter. Most all the points you raise are covered in the series of talks, and several times (he calls himself) Logan refers to the first time he encountered a situation, I think, because that makes it easier to use as an example in a teaching situation. He is not glib about these things. These are not ordinary 'sermons'.

Quote:
And the lies that are being taught in this area are all the more proof that New Christians need to be taught to get into the New Testament and KNOW it and to know where they/we stand in Christ and what playing what sin can do to anyone's walk - not even considering the demonic in that - but knowing how GOD feels Himself about rebellion being as the sin of witchcraft.

New converts need to understand first and foremost that their relationship with GOD is one of loving the LORD and having that desire to obey His Word is out of that Love - knowing even the enabling to obey and follow His Word is given to them of GOD. That He is The Good and gentle Faithful Shepherd of His Sheep.
The true convert, indwelt by His Spirit, has nothing whatsoever to fear. To fear is not of His Word.

A Christian who knows that they're living up to the light that they have, is called 'perfect' by GOD.

What I saw the most of and still see, are those who have believed incorrect teachings or have faulty personal beliefs about the power of demons with Christians.

I just wanted to quote this because you cover a point which arises late in the series, namely, that they don't even try to deliver anyone who is not a Christian, who is unwilling to come onto the ground of Christ. So, they lead a person to Christ, and then pray for their deliverance from the evil spirits involved. This is the scriptural order.

He does tell of one person who went back into sin after having been delivered, who was - at the time of the talks - in a mental institution as a result of the back-sliding.

 2011/4/22 11:02









 Re:

Regarding "sin" - we are tempted of our own lusts and even if the enemy comes in like a flood with non-Scriptural words - counterfeit gifts - or temptations - Jesus gives the way out - HIS WORD. Just needed to say that part one more time.

We are mighty when walking in The Spirit of The Living GOD and according to His written Word and need to know that our weapons are mighty - if we stay within the perimeters of His Word alone and realize that we do indeed need to obey His directive to wait upon the Baptism in His Spirit - to do otherwise is rebellion against His Word and we all know what rebellion leads to. And we need to depend totally upon Him for His gifts, in this area especially.


"Fear" is pandemic in these days and will only increase and "fear" opens the doors to "lies" implanted into the thought life of an individual given to 'fear'. One Needs to know where they stand in Christ by His Word alone and understand the danger of giving one's mind over to fear instead of renewing their minds with His Truths.


I felt led to come back on here after going to prayer and explain that faulty teaching can lead these that I spoke of to resort to "medical" help.

I know of three persons who had been given faulty teachings on where we stand in Christ and half-baked 'demonology' that were too far gone by time we met them to help them - because it had gotten them to the point of seeking help from Doctors and all three were institutionized.

Once a person has come under the care of a Doctor - they are Beyond the help of the Church and Most especially if they are then institutionalized. Does this not show us the importance of doctrinal purity and the need for dependence on His Spirit when ministering to Anyone?


One lady that had been in Church all of her life, raised in a Christian home, who went this route, has been in a Nursing Home with Parkinson's that she developed from the "medical" help she received for just beginning to have trouble sleeping years ago and having sat under faulty teaching of where we stand in Christ in her Baptist church.
All she needed was some Biblical counseling and maybe a natural sleep aide until she was re-taught the Word of Truth.


The other two became incapable of caring for their own children and had to depend on in-laws to help because they Only believed one lie, that drove their imaginations beyond what is actually written and they both, as well, resorted to Dr's 'care' before they could get sound help from another Christian.

One of these three sweet Sisters in Christ, who was in a church that was heavily into "demons", shouted commands at "her demons" for many hours until the woman was allowed to leave, only to go home to be further tormented by mere lies only.

All three of these women were dear sweet ladies who's only problem was an over-active conscience that the enemy used to accuse them with and they fell under False Condemnation when actually, they were very obedient to the Word that they knew and they weren't 'sinners' - but all three were never grounded in the Words of where we as obedient Christians stand in Christ. That was all they lacked. Sound doctrine. And the one who was subjected to that all-night "deliverance service" was fed a pack of lies of the power of Satan - beyond what is written!

When you see these things enough times happen to people you've come to love - then you become all the more dependent on His Word alone and His leading for wisdom for each individual through the gifts mentioned, that only He can give, to those who know that they can do nothing of themselves to help anybody, especially one on the edge of a cliff, mentally and spiritually.
We need to humble ourselves before Him and reckon once and for all that without Him, we can do nothing, and that without sound doctrine and obedience to His command to be filled with His Spirit - we are actually dangerous if we enter any type ministry to the troubled souls out there.

The days ahead will be like nothing seen in the history of man - except for the hints that The LORD gives of the days of Lot and Noah.

I've seen far too many roll up their sleeves, anxious to cast out demons, without sound doctrine or the leading of His Spirit - and that is a frightening truth that will stay with me for the rest of my life. Sometimes it's good to be 'frightened' into the reality of the command of, "in Spirit and in Truth" alone. May we humble ourselves to that point of reality in Spiritual things.

 2011/4/22 11:49









 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan

Quote:
I've seen far too many roll up their sleeves, anxious to cast out demons, without sound doctrine or the leading of His Spirit - and that is a frightening truth that will stay with me for the rest of my life. Sometimes it's good to be 'frightened' into the reality of the command of, "in Spirit and in Truth" alone. May we humble ourselves to that point of reality in Spiritual things.

Well, I haven't seen the things you have, but I have seen some things, and agree completely that this is not an area of ministry to enter without clear leading and discernment through the Holy Spirit.

 2011/4/22 12:25
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Jesus-is-God wrote:

Quote:
If we come to fully 'understand' that the Word of GOD is the only True Truth in the universe and that it's 'Living' besides and our weapon of warfare, besides a lamp onto our feet and the light upon our paths - then any "lies" that the enemy or false teachers try to implant into our minds are counteracted by His Word. . . . . Without the same gifts of the Spirit that we know the Apostles used in their ministry and being filled with a sound understanding of His Word and even dependent on Him to give us the correct Scriptures for each individual situation - we are arrogant fools to try to help those who are in mental anguish of any sort. . . . . If we as a generation do not start pointing people to His WORD alone, we will stand before Him as the most guilty generation of all - "for to him that much is given - much is required."



The last paragraph is frightening when I consider the wonderful Providence that has given me multiple Bibles & books and every other webpage I have saved and pamplets galore. What an unprofitable servant I truly am.


_________________
Janice

 2011/4/22 13:26Profile





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