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 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan


Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I'm wondering why you think Jesus gave power to His disciples, and authority in His name to us, to cast out demons, if it never needs to be done for anyone?

 2011/4/20 17:32
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3401
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan


I typed this short testimony of what he said about how he got into this area of casting out demons (spiritual warfare). He said he became involved when he saw missionaries coming back from some of these places around the world.

-------------------------------------
Warfare is a relatively new area for me. I’ve only been counseling the demonized for about the last six years. But immediately when I was so unnerved with my first missionary that voices spoke out of... it was a terrible thing... I began to read and to study; I’m very slow to change (just ask my wife).

So I began to get books, I’ve read about 500 to 600 books in the area of warfare. I began to get them from other countries, began to read everything I could read on it to be sure what do I know? What do I believe? What has been written on this? I’ve read books written in the 1500’s, 1600’s, amazing. .... you read a book from 1657 on warfare and you’d think it was written yesterday; the enemy has not changed.

Then I went through the New Testament four times and marked every verse that alluded to spiritual warfare with SW and then I’ve gone back through and did Greek word studies on every verse. I don’t want to go down a wrong road; then I went through the Old Testament four times and did Hebrew studies on these key passages... what are they saying? What is God taught.... I don’t want to stand up here and teach you something that is not true to the word of God.
(end 7.13 minutes)
----------------------

I look forward to listening to the rest but it won't be soon coming, I've got to work! Praise God!

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/4/20 21:55Profile









 Re:

We've had this discussion before... about Spirit filled Christians having demons 'in' them --- I believe it was on a Jesse Penn-Lewis thread.

It's Not In His Word.

 2011/4/20 23:31









 Re:

I think what Jesus-is-God is implying, when she includes "Spirit-Filled" Christian, is that even if a Christian is engaging in gross pornography and deception and in a horrible backslidden state, that just because they are "Spirit-Filled", the Holy Spirit will take over and keep that spirit of an unclean devil from coming into them and making a nice home for itself.

So, the Holy Spirit protects us while we are in gross sin and unable to control ourselves...

...or these are not real Christians. That's a lot of people.


Luk 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice.

So, if these are not Christians, then let's see, how many percent of professing Christians are involved in pornography? I forgot the poll, something like 60 per cent.

Now the Lord did not tell us about all the demonic spirits that exist (one guy had over a thousand) but he did give us a good sampling.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Are the captives only UNSAVED PEOPLE. Are Christians ever captives to anything?

Here is a lady that had an infirmity.

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

JESUS called it a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY!

"Had a spirit", means she carried it with her wherever she went.

Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a SPIRIT OF DIVINATION met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Ever known a Christian involved in astrology or anything else like that. Some Christians in time of deep stress that leads to sin (not trusting God) have consulted mediums or palm readers. You get what you ask for (or open yourself up to).

Regarding legalism or the law, Jesus calls it the spirit of bondage.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the SPIRIT OF BONDAGE again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ever met an extremely legalistic Christian?

Jesus even says that there is a demonic spirit that causes spiritual blindness.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Whenever the enemy is trying to put a spirit of fear on you, remember that it does not come from God. Fight against it and don't receive it.

The sad thing is that I have met many Christians that have a spirit of fear that is manifested many different ways. They have definitely been in bondage to fear. So much that it incapacitates them to be able to make a simple decision.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

And since He has given you the spirit of power, love and sound mind, protect it by remaining in Him, and don't open yourself to other unclean spirits.

Ever met deceived Christians believing false doctrines.
Jesus called that the spirit of error.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the SPIRIT OF ERROR.

Satan does not respect ignorance or unbelief.

What do you think a Christian will receive if they engage in adultery (pornography, lust). I bet Jesus would have called that a spirit of adultery or fornication. A spirit of murder (hatred in the heart), lying, (we already see what He called that). Look at the other works of the flesh.

If we engage in the works of the flesh, which are the nature of Satan, don't you think it will attract some unsavory "friends"?

Still not convinced?

Then all these "Christians" that have all these problems and more, need to be born-again, right? Either you think they are false brethren or just oppressed. Only thing about oppression is that it does not grip you and control you for months and years.

You may not have ministered to a genuine born-again believer that needed deliverance. That's ok, no one faults you for that. But now you see it in the Word and just be open about it This is sadly and terribly widespread and don't shut people down that have may have witnessed or even experienced it. The Lord might have something to teach all of us.

Listen to some of Milt Green's DVDs. Here is a brother that was invited to speak at many churches for a weekend and would end up spending weeks and months at the church ministering deliverance to the captives starting with the Pastor and the leadership team right on down to the worship leader and the congregation.

What about James Robison's confession in Christianity Today? Milt Green ministered deliverance to him. He had a strong spirit of lust that he said felt like a vise grip on his head.

Since this is so widespread, I am sure you can find testimonies all over the Internet.

This teaching (that the Holy Spirit protects you even when you are in horribly gross sin) causes many Christians to freely engage in sin and dabble in things they have no business dabbling in.

Anyway, this is not something to strive about. The Lord may show you and He may not and if He does you may see it and you may not.


A777


1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


 2011/4/21 1:00









 Re:

quote: "I think what Jesus-is-God is implying, when she includes "Spirit-Filled" Christian, is that even if a Christian is engaging in gross pornography and deception and in a horribl backslidden state, that just because they are "Spirit-Filled", the Holy Spirit will take over and keep that spirit of an unclean devil from coming into them and making a nice home for itself.

So, the Holy Spirit protects us while we are in gross sin and unable to control ourselves.

Such a deal!

...or these are not real Christians. That's a lot of people."




You think you know what I was implying?

It's obvious you do not know what I meant.

Had you read my post on the bottom of page 1 than "maybe you would and then again, maybe you wouldn't understand".

Most of those verses say that GOD DID NOT give us a "spirit of" this or that.

The woman with the spirit of infirmity was not saved!

In the verse - GOD has not given us a "spirit of fear" - for "fear" here is deilia, meaning cowardice and the "sound mind" part is "self discipline or self control".

With those verses you quoted - not all were actual "spirits" as in demons - if you check Strong's definition, it can be "mental disposition".

If a "Christian" gets into "deep pornography and deception and a horrible backslidden state" then that is exactly what they are - Backslidden and if they died in that state - they'd wake up in Hell - for there's no fear or love of GOD in them.

If you begin to blame demons for sin - you open a door that will take people down a very deceptive trail.

On this topic - I agree with David Wilkerson - a Christian cannot be demon possessed. That The Holy Spirit will not reside in the same "temple" with a demon.
If a person is demon possessed (indwelt) they are not Saved.

 2011/4/21 1:45









 Re:

AtG, I found the thread that you may very well have read.

The discussion with "urbanus"

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37171&forum=40&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

No comments on my first post at the bottom of page 1 - just that one question to me AtG?

------------------------------------------------------

Lisa, I don't remember the exact number that Leonard Ravenhill gave for what he believed the actual percentage of truly saved people there are amongst professing "Christians" but you can correct me if I'm wrong - but for some reason I remember someone saying 2%.

If a "missionary" started speaking with "a different voice" I would certainly question their walk with GOD.

The first ministry that The LORD led me into when I was newly saved was demonology but I'm not writing any books.
He wrote the Only Book we'll ever Need to read.

All demon possession is of the unsaved through-out the Word of GOD.

Eph 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but **fellowcitizens** with the saints,
and of **the household of God**; and **are built** upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
in whom all the building fitly framed together

groweth unto **an holy temple in the Lord:**

in Whom ye also **are builded** together for

**an habitation of God** through the Spirit.

-------------------------------------------------

If we even begin to blame a Christian's sin on demons - we've contradicted every Word of our Bible regarding sin in a believer's life and have opened a door to a deception that will have devastating affects on young Christians who haven't had the chance to Study to show themselves approved and able to rightly divide the Word of Truth and have put that "spirit of fear" in them that will more than likely gainsay over them until or hopefully they READ HIS WORD WELL and ONLY, on where we stand in Christ and that we're tempted of our 'own' lusts.




 2011/4/21 2:44
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3401
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
The woman with the spirit of infirmity was not saved!


Since Jesus only dealt with the Israelites or half-Israelites, I’d say it’s safe to say that she “represented” what we refer to today as “saved people.”

Quote:
If a "missionary" started speaking with "a different voice" I would certainly question their walk with GOD.


Sister, questioning someone’s salvation is between you and God.

Quote:
Lisa, I don't remember the exact number that Leonard Ravenhill gave for what he believed the actual percentage of truly saved people there are amongst professing "Christians" but you can correct me if I'm wrong - but for some reason I remember someone saying 2%.


I might offend a few people here but maybe Leonard Ravenhill was wrong because only God knows and can judge a man’s heart. I enjoy Leonard Ravenhill’s sermons but he was not right on everything.

JiG, I cannot argue what Jim Logan saw or heard with that missionary that started him on this journey; I was just providing his words for more clarification about the Spiritual Warfare series. I cannot in all good conscious pick apart the man’s testimony. He knows what he saw and heard and she was not the only Christian this happened to in his ministry (or even other people’s ministries).

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/4/21 7:18Profile









 Re:

**UPDATE**

I don't blame Satan for sin.

When a Christian allows themselves to be brought back into bondage again the faculty of their wills have been greatly compromised.

Jesus spoke much about this topic, but you can also explain anything away with the Word.

Not taking anything away from Leonard, but I will go with Milton Green. Leonard was more of a spiritual "office worker" while Milt worked in the "field" everyday. Leonard could recognize what was wrong with the church and write very effectively about it. I am just saying that Milt was in the "thick of things". He saw what was wrong, but was also out there being used by God to set people free.

Plus my own experience with Christians. If you are going to to say that all these people were never born-again, then you are talking about millions of people, including James Robison.

Unclean spirits inhabit the FLESH, NOT the human spirit of the person, which is always and solely reserved for fellowship with God - by the Holy Spirit if they have received Him. This is a basic teaching.

This is a subject that blows most people's "theology". It certainly blew mine. Reading the Bible is one thing but experiencing this is wholly quite another. We are not talking theory, here. And it is pointless to go on and on about it. The only person that can prove it to you is Jesus. That's the way it was with me, too.

This is not the place to talk about experiences. Satan loves to sensationlize this kind of thing. He is very crafty.

Sadly, today's Christians keep a lot of psychiatrists in business and give their money to drug companies for haldol and other very strong drugs to control themselves and their kids.

I pray the Lord gives you understanding.

A777

 2011/4/21 8:48
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 526


 Re: Can a Christian be demon "possessed"?

Below is an excerpt from Jim Logan's book "Reclaiming Surrendered Ground". It is an excellent book and is available from Amazon and Christian booksellers.
http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Surrendered-Ground-Protecting-Spiritual/dp/0802439489/

Whenever I teach on the subject of spiritual warfare or counsel a person in my office, I try to deal with a very important and valid question. Maybe it has already occurred to you. The question is this: can a Christian be demon-possessed? Put another way, can the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit occupy the same territory in a person's life?

Depending on how you answer that question, you probably will or will not believe that demonic influence and attacks on a Christian are even a possibility. Many people come to this issue with a pretty firm idea of what they believe. But some of the conclusions we draw are more on the order of inferences rather than interpretations of direct biblical teaching.

Defining Terms

The issue of the Christian and demonic activity is a hot button. But that doesn't mean we can ignore it or retreat to the safety of the standard answers. My friend and fellow warfare counselor Neil Anderson says, "No question polarizes the Christian community more than this one, and the tragedy is that there is no absolutely biblical way to answer it."'

"Possession"

What Anderson means is that the New Testament does not directly answer the question of whether a Christian can be demon-possessed. That's because the New Testament doesn't really address the issue of demon possession, as we commonly think of it, in relation to the Christian.

In fact, the very term demon possession itself is part of the problem. It is used in most English versions of the Bible to translate a single Greek word - and it may not be the best translation at all. Tim Warner says:

The use of the word "possession" to translate the expressions used in the Greek New Testament to indicate the relationship between demons and people is unfortunate, if not unwarranted. We obtained our English word "demon" by transliterating the Greek word daimon. We should have done the same with the Greek word daimonizomai - a verb form of the same Greek root. It would then come into English as "demonize" and we could then speak of the degree to which a person could be demonized rather than being limited to the either-or options imposed by the possessed - not possessed view.'

I believe Warner is on target when he concludes, "Spiritual possession' clearly implies ownership and would seem to include the control of one's eternal destiny. [It] would be impossible to be owned and controlled by Satan and have a saving relationship with Christ at the same time. So if the question is, 'Can a Christian be demon-possessed?', the answer is clearly no."

A Continuum

Warner's conclusion is an inference from the Scriptures; we cannot point to a specific chapter and verse. But I think it's the right inference. We who know Christ have been bought by Him at the cost of His blood. And I don't see any place in the Bible where Christ sells me to the devil.

However, as Warner indicates above, the issue of Satan's work in a Christian's life is not a stark, either/or choice of no influence or full possession. It is better represented by a continuum, ranging from mere suggestion to what I would call a dominating and destructive influence. Neil Anderson observes,

The fact that a Christian can be influenced to one degree or another by the "god of this world" is a New Testament given. If not, then why are we instructed to put on the armor of God and stand firm (Eph. 6:10), to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor. 10:5), and to resist the devil (James 4:7)? And what if we don't put on the armor of God, stand firm, assume responsibility for what we think; and what if we fail to resist the devil? Then what? We are easy prey for the enemy of our souls."

We've already looked at 1 Peter 5:8. What does it mean to be devoured by Satan? Why does God warn me of that if it's not a possibility? The word devour means "to gobble down quickly." Satan not only wants to eat your lunch, he wants to eat you! Warner spells out so clearly the tremendous damage Satan is doing to the body of Christ because so many refuse to recognize his influence:

Only eternity will reveal the number of believers who have led unproductive, frustrated lives and of Christian workers who have been forced to forsake their ministries because of attacks of the enemy. This happens in spite of the fact that the New Testament warnings concerning demonic activity are all addressed to believers.... How RESIST got changed to IGNORE in so many segments of the Church, I don't know. When it did, however, Satan and his forces gained a great strategic advantage.'

"Influence"

The key word in everything that has been said to this point, at least for believers, is influence. When it comes to God's people, evil spirits are spirits of influence only. That's not true for unbelievers in the world. They are held firmly in Satan's grasp, under his control, blinded in their hearts and minds and utterly dead to spiritual truth until quickened by the Holy Spirit. They are members of his kingdom of darkness (Ephesians 2:2).

But as we've seen, Christians are already "possessed" (owned) by the Holy Spirit, so demonic possession in the sense of ownership is not the issue. Rather, the issue is the influence the evil one can exert on us. "In discussing demonic spiritual warfare on the personal level," Scott Moreau explains, "one general principle must be noted at the onset: demons can only influence believers to the extent that we allow them to do so." Moreau, assistant professor of missions and intercultural studies at Wheaton Graduate School, adds, "The act of giving or allowing Satan to take any amount of control in our life is referred to as 'giving ground."'6

Giving Ground to the Enemy

Moreau is referring to Paul's warning in Ephesians 4:27. After cautioning us not to let our anger simmer overnight, Paul says, "Neither give place to the devil." The word translated place here is the Greek word topos. This word might look familiar to you even in its original form. It's at the root of English words like topography, and refers to the ground or a specific spot or location.

So giving place to Satan in our lives is giving him ground, a "foothold" according to the New International Version of the Bible, an "opportunity" (NASB and Revised Standard Version), a "chance" (Today's English Version). On the other side, one commentator describes Paul's admonition as allowing the devil "no leeway ... no room to move."'

Gaining Entrance

All of these translations, and there are others, add up to a very graphic description of the way Satan can gain entrance into a believer's life. Clinton Arnold, associate professor of New Testament at the Talbot School of Theology, describes the process and how to resist this way:

It is likely that any sinful activity that the believer does not deal with by the power of the Spirit can be exploited by the devil and turned into a means of control over a believer's life. Therefore, Christians need to resist. For Paul there is no middle ground. There is no nominal Christianity. Believers either resist the influence of the evil one who works through the flesh and the world, or they relinquish control of their lives to the power of darkness. Giving in to those temptations does not just confirm the weakness of the flesh, it opens up the lives of believers to the control of the devil and his powers. We need to recognize the supernatural nature of temptation and be prepared to face it."

Ephesians 4:26 is the immediate context of Paul's warning and a wonderful example of how we can give spiritual ground to Satan. This verse clearly allows for proper anger. That is beyond dispute. But what happens when anger simmers unchecked in our soul? It degenerates into bitterness - a sin that gives Satan an opening into our lives big enough to drive a truck through!

 2011/4/21 11:10Profile









 Re:


Hi TrueWitness, on that linked discussion I left in my post - we also discussed "possession of faculties".
For a "Christian" to open his mouth and a demon speaks - from where is that voice coming out of?

That one manifestation alone is a sign of "possession".

And Neil Anderson and the author here both admit this 'stuff' isn't in our New Testament.
That's my reason for disagreeing with it all in the first place.
They are describing "possession" in this series and saying now that it's Not possession.
Did someone say these men are Baptists or did I hear that on one of the series only?



~ AtG - your question still has me puzzled ... mainly the word "anyone".

 2011/4/21 13:36





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