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Discussion Forum : General Topics : A Red Herring, "The Readability of the KJV"

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 Re:

Thank you AtG.

 2011/4/15 16:09









 Re: The Readability of the KJV and the "Readability Lie"

Quote:
Thank you AtG.

Actually, someone beat me to it. You may like to read back.





To Oracio,

I ploughed through about half of that list of archaic words, and it seems there the author genuinely believes ALL of them cannot be effectively guessed at - whereas I would disagree on a number of them. Now, immediately let me say that's because we still use some of them over here.

For instance, 'angle' is automatically associated with a bent piece of metal, or a strip of metal that has been folded to a degree. Don't go 'at' your wives is specifically about abstaining from marital relations, but in the case of dead bodies, from necromancy. An apothecary is a chemist, or one who works with chemicals in their application to health or medicine (pharmacist). To make them ALL 'perfumer' is very limiting therefore. In the context of the uses of the word 'apothecary' which he quoted - to make sweet scented oils, yes it was for perfume - but that's not all they do. (That's a few examples.)

Quote:
In numerous passages the word "conversation" is used and it no longer has the same meaning today.

I counted twenty. Is that 'numerous'? The clever thing is, once one grasps what it does mean, it works the same way in all twenty instances.

Having said that, I began to look at the two versions, to see if my claim is true. Well first of all, there is no use of the word 'behaviour' in the NASB. They chose 'conduct'. But, it doesn't match only the twenty 'conversation's I found, but there are five uses of 'conduct' before the first use of conversation. Then, the second 'conversation'/'conduct' is missing completely from the NASB, because they chose the word 'order' instead. Now what interested me about this one example, is that the NASB also leaves words IN, which the KJV leaves out. Like this:

(KVV) Psalm 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth [his] conversation [aright] will I shew the salvation of God.

(NASB) Psalm 50:23 "He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me; And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God."

In other words, 'order' in modern English does not imply RIGHT order any more.

This comparison not only shows the introduction of 'aright' to the text, where the KJV left it as 'order', it shows that 'glorify' has been changed to 'honor', which I wasn't expecting, and could give a reader the impression they mean the same thing.

Just for a double check, I'm looking at a verse in the KJV says to honor one's wife:

(KJV) 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

(NASB) 1 Peter 3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Well, just a personal opinion here, I think that moving the 'honor' changes what it says. The NASB moves the honour from her status as a wife and weaker vessel, to her status as an heir of life. I'll leave you to check the Greek, to see which one the apostle intended.

But so, is it the same to 'honor' the Lord, as to 'glorify' Him? It turns out that the word the KJV translated 'glorifieth' has to do with thanksgiving and praise. Remember, the verse began 'Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me', compared with 'He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me' (NASB). So now, the NASB has had to add 'sacrifice of', qualified by thanksgiving. [Sigh.] I'll leave the comparison there. All it shows is that things are not as they appear, and a closer study of the original text is always worthwhile!!!


R Joyner also commented that the KJV was 'wrong' in its choice of words, implying some fault on the part of the book, whereas WHO would pick up a piece of writing four hundred year old, and assume they could be sure of understanding every word of it? One only needs to follow the additions of new words every year to a dictionary, to know that that ATTITUDE to an old text, is unreasonable (however appealing).

 2011/4/15 16:49









 Re:

I was reading the NKJV a while back to check on some things and came across the word "SATRAP".

I had no idea what that word was. In the KJV it is Lieutenant. Ezra 8:36

"Satraps" is not easier from me to understand.

In my opinion, "satraps" is obsolete (if it ever was in popular use).

What is "offal", "rockhyrax", "ascent of Heres", "pirn", "sistrums", "retinue", "verdant" "terebinth" "syrtis sands"??

These words are easier for "young people" today? I don't think adults even know them.

NKJV said they just got rid of the thou, thine, est, eth, but it looks like they changed whole words and made it more difficult.

Just my observation.

What think Ye? (translation - What do you think?)

A777

 2011/4/15 17:10









 Re: The Readability of the KJV and the "Readability Lie"

Quote:
I was reading the NKJV a while back to check on some things and came across the word "SATRAP".

Oh! You mean that SCRABBLE word? That and words like 'dost', 'doest', 'hadst', 'livest', 'wast', 'wouldst', 'wert', have all been retained in the international Scrabble dictionary. I know what you mean about satrap though. I had to get one of my children to explain it to me. It might be something to do with globalisation, rather than making the Book easier.

 2011/4/15 17:33
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

Well in all honesty I think if you have to run a computer test to try to convince people which one is easiest to read your going about the wrong way just to convince someone your favorite version is best. If you want to know which one is easiest to read simply pick them up and read them. I personally find the NIV much easier to read than the KJV, and have grown leaps and bounds in my understanding of God's word since switching from KJV.

A simple test would be to ask some teenagers to read some of the same passages from a few different versions and ask them which they understood better. Based on my experience with youth my guess would be any version other than KJV.

In love,
Timmyjoe

 2011/4/15 17:40Profile









 Re:

LOL (in the Oxford Dictionary now), you're funny.

If we didn't find some humor and irony in all these changes that are supposed to make reading easier we would surely be crying.

A777

 2011/4/15 17:47









 Re:

Interesting that you would say that.

George Barna did just what you recommended. He took a poll.


"Religious behaviors that surprised us: 16

A larger percentage of born-again adults have been divorced at sometime during their lifetime than have non-Christians (27% vs. 23%)

The King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is 5 times more likely to be read during the week than is the New International Version (NIV).

58% of adults believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches. We would have expected this to be about 40%."

 2011/4/15 17:57
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Do you have a citation for this particular "poll," anonymous777?

I went to Barna's website and couldn't find it via their search feature. I did find your quote in a few websites, but their citation included a link to Barna for a page that didn't really exist.

Is this something that you read from Barna (firsthand), or did you this quoted somewhere else? Did you test the claims or the link?

By the way, I wish that you would change the title of this thread and remove the word "lie" -- since it is simply untrue for many, many people.

Thanks,
-Chris


_________________
Christopher

 2011/4/15 18:10Profile









 Re: The Readability of the KJV and the "Readability Lie"

Quote:
I personally find the NIV much easier to read than the KJV, and have grown leaps and bounds in my understanding of God's word since switching from KJV.

Timmyjoe, I agree completely, but it didn't last. I had to go back to the KJV to keep growing. By then my confidence with a Greek interlinear, Strong's, literal versions (and so on), which means my methods of Bible study had also grown. There comes a point when one wants the word as rich as possible, because that's when one begins to see the deeper connections.

My 2c.

 2011/4/15 18:26









 Re:

AtG,

Here are some more "scrabble" words for you.


Take the NKJV and NIV vocabulary test.

You may be able to recognize and define many of these words, though you too would probably fail a vocabulary test, but try giving this list to the average high school student today and see how they do.

NKJV Vocabulary Test:

Abase, abashed, abode, adhere, admonish, adversity, aground, algum, alienate, alighting, allays, allotment, alloy, aloof, alms, amend, amiss, annihilated, anise, antitype, arbitrate, apprehended, archives, armlets, ascertain, asps, attire, austere, backbite, banishment, baths (not to get clean), bdellium, befalls, beggarly, begetting, behemoth, belial, beseech, betrothal, beveled, birthstools, bittern, bleat, booty (not modern slang), borne, breach, brandished (not drunk), bray, bristling, buffet (not a restaurant), buckler (not a belt), bulrush, (not a stampede), burnished, butress (not a chair), calamus, caldron, capital (not a city), carcasses, carnally, carrion (not luggage), cassia, caulkers, centurion (not a 100 years), chalcedony, chalkstones, chaste (not pursued by a runner), chasten, (not related to previous chaste), chrysolite, chrysoprase, circumspect, cistern (not feminine of brethren), citadel, citron, clamor, cleft, cloven (not a spice), commission (not money), commonwealth (not shared money), compound (not a barracks), concede , compulsory, conciliation, concubine (not a tractor), congealed, contemptuously, confederacy (not the South), contingents (not same as large land masses), corban, coriander, countenance (not adding up ants), couriers (not an hordourve), covert, crags, crescents, crest (not the top of a hill), cropped (not food), cubit, custodian (not the one who cleans the school halls), curds, dainties (not effeminate), dandled, daubed, dappled, dayspring, denarii, deposed (not relaxing after a foto op), deride (not same as dismount), despoiled (not really, really rotten), diadem, diffuses (not to disarm a bomb), dilapidation (not the act of standing up), dispensation, disrepute, dissipation, diviner (not a grape grower), docile, dragnet (not a detective drama), dregs, drachmas, dropsy (not clumsiness), dross, dryshod, eczema (God bless you), edict, edification, elaborate, embellish, emitted, enigma, enmity, entrails (not a short cut), envoy, eventide, epistle, ephod, exorcise (not jogging), expiration (not a date on a carton of milk), faction, fallow, famish, fare (not average and not money), fatlings (not piglets), feigned (not passed out), festal, fetched, fidelity (not good sound), figurehead (not a statue of a head), filly, flanges, foreskin, fostered, fowlers (not a baseball term), fuller (not less empty), furlongs (not cat tails), gad, garland, garrison, gaunt, gecko, graven, Hellenists, hew (not a man's name), homers (not baseball), hoopoe (not a garden tool), immutability, indignant, insolence, insubordination, intervene, itinerant, jackdaw, jeopardy (a TV show, but what does it mean?), jubilation, kors (not a brand of beer), laden, lamentations, laud (not Boston pronunciation of lard), lusty, mail (not a letter), mammon, matrix (other than the movie), mattock (not a TV lawyer show), mercenaries, mina (not a type of bird), mite (not a bed bug), moorings, nativity, offal (not terrible), offscouring (not dandruff), omnipotent, onager (Job 39:5 - you won't believe this one!) oracle, pangs, papyrus (not a fruit), paramours, parapet(not a dog and a cat), penitents, perdition, phylacteries, pilfering, pillage, pims, pins (not like needles or bowling- has to do with a chariot), pinions (not a type of nut), plaited (not dishes), platitudes, potentate, potsherd, poultice (not chickens), Praetorium (not a place to pray), prattler, principality, prodigal, proconsul, prognosticators (not people who put things off till later), propitiation, pslatery, prow, pulverize, pyre, quadrans, quiver (not to shake), rampart (not a piece of a truck), ravenous, ravished, raze (not to lift up), reconciliation, recount (not to double check your arithmetic), rend, renown, reprisal, retinue, rifled (does not have to do with guns), rivulets, rogue, salute ( does not have to do with the army), satiate, satraps, scruples, sepulcher, shamefaced, shards, Sheol, shod, shuttle (not a type of bus or spaceship), siegeworks, sistrums (not an affectionate term for your sisters), skiff, soothsayer, spelt (not anything to do with spelling words), straits (not the opposite of crookeds), superfluous, supplanted, tamarisk, tares, tarries, temperate, terebinth, terrestrial, tetrarch, throng (not a skimpy bathing suit), timbrel, tittle (not the name of a book), tresses, usury, vagabond, vassal, vehement, vermilion, verdure, verity, vestments, waifs, wane, wanton (not desiring something), warp (not to bend), wend, wield, winebibber, woof (not a dog or stereo), wrought.

NIV Vocabulary Test:

Proponents of the modern Bible translations claim that the King James Bible's vocabulary is too antiquating and hard to understand. They make these accusations against the King James Bible in an attempt to justify publishing "newer" and "easier to understand" Bibles. As you will quickly discover below, the New International Version (NIV) is NOT easier to understand. "New" is not always a better thing. In the case of the NIV, it is much worse!

Below is a sampling of difficult words found in the New International Version.

abashed, abominable, abutted, acclaim, adder, adhere, admonishing, advocate, alcove, algum, allocate, allots, ally, aloes, appease, ardent, armlets, arrayed, astir, atonement, awl, banishment, battlements, behemoth, belial, bereaves, betrothed, bier, blighted, booty, brayed, breaching, breakers, buffeted, burnished, calamus, capital (not a city), carnelian, carrion, centurions, chasm, chronic, chrysolite, cistern, citadel, citron, clefts, cohorts, colonnades, complacency, coney, concession, congealed, conjure, contrite, convocations, crest, cors, curds, dandled, dappled, debauchery, decimated, deluged, denarii, depose, derides, despoil, dire,dispossess, disrepute, dissipation, distill, dissuade, divination, dragnet, dropsy, duplicity, earthenware, ebony, emasculate, emission, encroach, enmity, enthralled, entreaty, ephod, epicurean, ewe, excrement, exodus, factions, felled, festal, fettered, figurehead, filigree, flagstaff, fomenting, forded, fowler, gadfly, galled, gird, gauntness, gecko, gloating, goiim, harrowing, haunt, hearld, henna, homers, hoopoe, ignoble, impaled, implore, incur, indignant, insatiable, insolence, intact, invoked, jambs, joists, jowls, lairs, lamentation, leviathan, libations, loins, magi, manifold, maritime, mattocks, maxims, mina, misdemeanor, mother-of-pearl, mustering, myrtles, naive, naught, Negev, Nephilim, nettles, nocturnal, nomad, notorious, Nubians, oblivion, obsolete, odious, offal, omer, oracles, overweening, parapet, parchments, pavilion, peals (noun, not the verb), perjurers, perpetuate, pestilence, pinions, phylacteries, plumage, pomp, porphyry, portent, potsherd, proconsul, propriety, poultice, Praetorium, pretext, profligate, promiscuity, provincial, providence, qualm, quarries, quivers (noun, not verb), ramparts, ransacked, ratified, ravish, rabble, rawboned, relish (not for hotdogs), recoils, recount, refrain, relent, rend, reposes, reprimanded, reputed, retinue, retorted, retribution, rifts, roebucks, rue, sachet, satraps, sated, shipwrights, siegeworks, sinews, sistrums, sledges, smelted, somber, soothsayer, sovereignty, spelt, stadia, stench, stipulation, sullen, tamarisk, tanner, temperate, tether, tetrarch, terebinth, thresher, throes, thronged, tiaras, tinder, tracts, transcends, tresses, turbulent, tyrannical, unscathed, unrelenting, usury, vassal, vaunts, vehemently, verdant, vexed, wadi, wanton, warranted, wield, winnowing and wrenched.

It is funny that you can put together the phrase from the KJB which says; “The very sad green giant was hungry” and in the NIV it would be: "The overweening dejected verdant Nephilim was famished.

A777


 


 2011/4/15 18:44





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