"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
The word pastor originates from the Latin for shepherd not father. (pastor=shepherd, pater=father) I don't personally approve of Christians using any such titles. I think Dr David Sterns is wrong in his assumption.
I see in scripture that the Apostle Paul (yes he calls himself apostle at times) uses terms such as brethren, servants, ([i]dublous[/i]) bond-slaves, to classify most Christians. Even himself he calls the least of all saints. I think he was following the humble example of Jesus who was GOD but counted Himself nothing taking the form of a servant.
The Bible never uses the word Christian as an adjective. So, in the final analysis, are you claiming to be a Jew or a Christian?
I agree with this and think its a fair question afterwards, the original church when it began to meet were all jews and they at one point called them "christians", that was their identity, not of human birth but from above, not having a promised land but a building above whose builder and architect is God.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/11/22 9:47||Profile|
I see in scripture that the Apostle Paul (yes he calls himself apostle at times)
Dear Saint Greg...
Haven't we had this conversation before? :-D [b]Our beloved brother Paul[/b], to give him his biblical name, described himself as an apostle. He did not call himself an apostle. And as far as we know, no one else ever called him Apostle either. He called himself a [b]bond slave of Jesus Christ[/b] who was [b]called [i]to be[/i] an apostle[/b].
The phrase 'called an apostle'describes his calling not his title. [b]Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, [u]called to be an apostle[/u], separated unto the gospel of God,[/b] (Rom 1:1 KJV) is matched by the later one [b]To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, [u]called to be saints[/u]: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.[/b] (Rom 1:7 KJV)
There is absolutely no evidence that [b]our beloved brother Paul[/b] ever received a letter addressed to
Come on now which do you like the sound of most? The 'Apostle Paul' or 'our beloved brother Paul'. And which captures the spirit of the 1st century church? As I said once before when we've spent the first few million years in eternity worshipping the Lord I am going to look up Paul. I shall not bow my head to an Apostle but I shall wrap him in my arms as a brother... and perhaps ask him a question or two about that note he sent to Rome. ;-)
| 2004/11/22 11:05||Profile|
May I remind you of beginnings and goals:
GUIDELINE: Praying for current trends and events
Praying for and interacting regarding current trends and events, for men in authority and their hearts and influence.
In this forum we would like to take a look at the current flow of news with the help of various news desks and writers.
Our main aim would be to generate intercession which provides an inroad for the Lord to use to touch hearts of men in authority, to allow each reader to get involved in the controversy between kingdoms and world views and to help bring deliverance to the poor and oppressed.
Intercessors do make a difference.
Secondary aims are:
To help in the process of defining and finding ways to effective prayer and fellowship in prayer of this category.
To do some decent comment on current issues.
To help find proper views regarding common trends, even regarding world views.
To walk the corridors of the men in authority to be able to do pre-evangelism in prayer.
Two main words meant to follow each person involved in this endeavour:
Give the king knowledge of Your way of judging, O God and the spirit of your righteousness to the kings son to control his actions. Psalms 72:1 Amplified version.
Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. Matt 5:44
A word of caution might be issued right from the beginning:
Bringing national leadership to the forefront in a forum like this mobilises all kindness and humility possible to avoid discussing politics under various party spirits and to abstain from criticising behaviour from the point of personal pride.
Certain presidents, prime ministers and their co-rulers behave as brute beasts, but will not in any way find grace through a proud and condemning church. The intercessor will have to allow the severest work of the Cross to be able to handle the pressure.
It is with this growing spiritual awareness that we will move ahead into this venture.
| 2004/11/22 11:15||Profile|
As I said once before when we've spent the first few million years in eternity worshipping the Lord I am going to look up Paul. I shall not bow my head to an Apostle but I shall wrap him in my arms as a brother... and perhaps ask him a question or two about that note he sent to Rome
If I might share my experience to help add to this conversation, I would first want to share that the term 'Rabbi' carries with it a lot of presuppositions based on things we have seen and read that are a bit different than the way the term has been used in the Messianic congregation(s) I am familiar with. Rabbi generally brings up images of a man dressed as a sage with a prayer shawl over his head who receives great honors and respect as we know the term has come to mean in Rabbinic Judaism. Messianic "Rabbi's" are more like pastors and make no claims of rabbinic authority as may exist in Hasidic Judaism. I have often questioned the use of the term Rabbi, but I have factored into that equation their mission. They desire to see their people the jews come to Jesus Christ. The problem with this is that the Church has done so many atrocities in the name of Jesus and the Church that the only way that many Jews will ever entertain the notion of receiving Jesus Christ is if He is presented to them as their Jewish Messiah and not as He has come to be perpetrated since the Universal Church was overrun with Hellenism. I have experienced this personally and tell about it in the article titled [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1975]BROTHER RAYMOND[/url]
Shall a Jew be asked to become a Gentile in order to be saved? Think about what we are saying if we believe this. The question used to be "can a Gentile be saved without becoming a circumcised Jew?" Think about Peter's words in Acts when he saw the sheet coming down. The question now is, "Can the Jew become a Christian without forsaking their Jewishness?" As if they were serving a different God? How can we read the New Testament and not see the consistent issue of Gentiles and Jews as it pertains to what they must do to be saved being Gentiles becoming more like jews (so to speak) and not Jews becoming like Gentiles. Gentiles do not need to be circumcised or keep the feasts or any of that (they are to walk in the Spirit) and Jews do not have to become UNcircumcised (they are also to Walk in the Spirit). Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (I Corinthians 7:18, 19 KJV)
Messianic Jews express their faith in Christ in ways that they feel is Biblical and traditional. Christianity in the 1st Century was one of many sects within Judaism known as the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5). The objective is not to follow modern Rabbinic Judaism, but to return to the Jewishness of the 1st Century Church as much as possible. Paul celebrated Pentecost and took vows Acts to prove he was not in opposition to Jew's keeping their Jewishness (Acts 18:18, 21;23-26, etc.). I have to believe they were legit and not meant to deceive. It may be hard for us to swallow as non-Jews, but the story remains.
Keeping these things in mind as we prayerfully consider the issue of the Jews will keep us from transgressing our prayers for the Jews by our misunderstanding and reactions to them.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/22 11:48||Profile|
| ISRAEL INTERCESSORS INJUNCTION|
Shalom Ron & Greg ... I can appreciate the dialogue, gentlemen. May I ask whether your hearts and minds are open to the scholarship of others who are seasoned saints? Rav Sha'ul as he was known by his Jewish peers understood that "emissary" was not a title per se, but his calling to the goyim. The word apostle is, I trust you understand, a church title imposed by early church fathers who of course were working in the common market language, Greek, not the native language of Rav Sha'ul. Rav Sha'ul, also known as "Paul" among the goyim Believers was what we now term a Messianic Jew, a servant of Messiah YESHUA as an emissary called and set apart showing goyim how to become part of GOD's people without having to become Jews - through faith and obedience, just as Avraham was made righteous and a friend of GOD.
Greg and Ron, my brothers in the faith, all of this is elementary to me and the over 500,000 Jews who have come to accept YESHUA as Messiah in the last 20 years. It is a clear signal that as more and more Jews come to embrace YESHUA as Messiah, that GOD is pouring out RUACH HaKODESH. The Rivers of Revival are Rising. Thus, it becomes a more urgent calling for us as Believers, both Jewish and non-Jewish Believers, to embrace the INJUNCTION to INTERCEDE for ISRAEL. Brothers, my deepeset desire is that all Israel be redeemed. America's revival is a bridge builder for Israel's survival. Additionally, when the righteous reign in America the represented rejoice. Therefore, when I am encouraging and equipping other Believers, VALUED VOTERS, to not just VISIT during a Presidential election cycle, but remain VIGILANT (yes through prayer and strategic alliances and compassionate contending in the marketplace of ides), I am building bridges-making disciples that recognize, reflect and rejoice in these building blocks that are central to The Central Command of Scripture: Love The LORD our GOD Who is One, with all your heart, mind and resources (the direct Hebrew translation) and Love your neighbor as yourself. I submit, Brothers, that The Great Commission, preceded in Matthew by The Greatest Commands, is a divine priority. One cannot make disciples without loving GOD first with all your heart, mind and resources and loving your neighbor as yourself. The difference in reversing the priority of The Great Commission over The Greatest Commandments is the difference between religious rituals and righteous relationships. I trust that we are at a place now to hear the INJUNCTION to INTERCEDE for ISRAEL? Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel
Rabbi DF Eukel
| 2004/11/22 12:08||Profile|
| Re: ISRAEL INTERCESSORS INJUNCTION|
Wow Rabbi, this is like a learned mens slug fest ...
As i expect of any learned man truly motivated by the spirit of Christ, when his audience is full of the more simple minded folk such as myself and so many that just read, that they break their meat down into pablum for the benefit of the least unlettered ... When i encounter learned men who profess Christ, and they don't reach down to make me understand (as Christ still does) then i begin to question their motives ... Frankly i think to much learnedness can often times become the complexities that muddy the waters (besides making my head hurt), instead of making them clear ... i had to look up Tehillim to find out it means Psalms ... Rabbi you're talking with non Jews, so it would be much easier if you took that into account ... i know that if i were you, and were operating out of Paul's mindset, according to 1 Cor. 9 i'd be using scriptural/spiritual terminology clear to the folk i was talking to ...
Rabbi Eukel, as brother Ron (Philologos) already knows, i'm a pretty simple man when it comes to Christ, Christianity and scripture ... Brother Ron knows some things (intellectually) that in a scriptural context are just so far over my head i just bow out of the conversation, and now you're on the scene with the Jewish equivalent ...
i've never been to seminary, don't have a DD other than divinely directed, don't know Latin or Greek - just barely getting by on English, don't know the Law or the Torah from a Jewish perspective, but from a saved sinner's perspective i do know Jesus Christ as my Savior, and Him crucified, and that in this dispensation of grace there is neither Jew nor Gentile, none better than the other, just plain ole saved folk all one color ... RED! ... the color of our once slain and now risen King Christ Jesus ...
So while you much more learned men than myself go at it, and yes i will be watching to see how many rounds this might go, let me share with you all the simplicity of Christ (via the Apostle Paul) that i sure try to practice, and certainly take solace in ...
 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
For the Gospels sake, our new and now allegience under grace, not for the sake of allegience(s) prior to that ...
Perhaps if we'd all agree on the fact that WE'RE ALL JOINT HEIRS IN CHRIST then we ALL could move on to brother Lars point, and the reason for the posting of this thread in the first place ... Amen
In His love,
| 2004/11/22 13:16||Profile|
So. MD, USA
Tell it, Rabbi. Paul said y'all are still God's chosen people!
And, Here's to the 'death of present day Israel'! 8-)
| 2004/11/22 13:44||Profile|
Quote:Perhaps we could discuss this elsewhere? I have posted in the scripture and doctrine section. ISRAEL INTERCESSORS INJUNCTION: an examination
I trust that we are at a place now to hear the INJUNCTION to INTERCEDE for ISRAEL?
| 2004/11/22 14:02||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Perhaps we could discuss this elsewhere? I have posted in the scripture and doctrine section.
Thanks for picking up on that Ron. At times there is a drift in topic headings as questions beget questions and branches of thought develop, which is fine to a point but often find us far removed from original intentions.
Here is the guidelines set forth once again:
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A review from time to time is helpful in just some basic organizational aspects, especially for newer users. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7&forum=12&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Community Rules[/url]
And of course there is always the [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=35&7286]Lounge[/url] for "[i]the things that don't really fit in the other sections of the forum.[/i] ;-)
| 2004/11/24 8:19||Profile|
wow, the title of this forum then is a hard thing to understand. i would easily have inferred that an intercession forum wouldn't object to an injunction of intercessors for Israel.
all the same, i don't know what the injunction would do. i suppose talk about the Israel's need as a nation ... the identity of Israel as a nation, heh, Israel in prophecy and the future and well, the burden of the Lord for Jerusalem to cry out "blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!"
| 2004/11/28 23:18||Profile|