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Yes, we must go with the Word of God. And I will stick to praying and not speaking.....
| 2011/3/9 16:30||Profile|
| Re: Hide the cough syrup.|
I have attended get togethers with saints celebrating God and worshipping Him in wonderful fellowship. I noticed on one occasion a few that would not partake of the Lord's Supper because the blood was represented by wine instead of grape juice. What a sad thing it is to not partake of something so wonderful over an issue of an aged grape. We are not talking about social drinking or the abuse of food or drink, scripture could not be more clear on an issue. So what are we debating? We are talking about how far this thing can go when one sees righteousness in those things that are not considered sin regarding participation or no participation. Also regarding consumption or no consumption. Regarding whether their hands are washed or not washed. When did that which was so clear stop being clear? Wasn't it clear regarding what goes into one's mouth in regard to defilement? Isn't it the mind and will that sets out to do that which defiles one. How much clearer can it be? We have so many examples and instruction in scripture yet we hold to that one thing that keeps rearing its head because it is taken out of context, and for what reason?.
So the question is will it cause a brother to stumble?
Is it not strange that in some countries it won't. How peculiar is that? So it's bound to geography? One can stumble over here but not over there? Isn't it odd that this was not the question in the early church? It was not the wine or other such drinks of alcholic nature. It was the abuse. I may drink a bottle of wine a year. I may drink 10 beers a year. I would sin if I drank them all at one sitting. That requires no great understanding. What is so wrongly presented is that somehow abstinence from certain things, whether that be drink, dance, spitting, shopping on Sunday, etc.... adds to one's righteousness. If we go down that road we are certain to find the things that we partake of that add to our righteousness as well. It is a dangerous road. One adopts this wrong interpretation of causing a brother to stumble and does little injury to the brother they rob of their liberty, but a great injury to themselves by the promotion of false righteousness as well as what that teaches others.
Concerning Idols and eating food sacrificed to them: If one loves the Lord and has come out from false Gods to the truth of the one true God whom they give everything up for, yes it would be difficult to see brothers partaking of that sacrificed flesh. Not that the brothers are participating in the sacrifice for they know there are no other gods but the one true God. It is the sensitivity of the new one in Christ that would be so offended by what that sacrifice represented. Can we not see the mind of these wonderful immature saints forsaking all they knew to have to deal with the abominable gods being given consideration over the God that they so dearly love. To bear that the meat was to honor what is an abomination to this new found love(God). That God is totally shunned and neglected for these statues made by mens hands. That this is robbery of the likes that go beyound description. Bless the hearts of these beuatiful and new children of the God of all creation.
So I would do these dear brothers and sisters who have long since passed (possibly due to death by persecution) an injustice to make an issue of a food group when their concern was the out right rebellion against the Lord in their new found discernment.
I will not mock the beauty of their immature and yet pure discernment, over what has been made a rediculous issue of religious culture that was dealt with clearly in scripture and will only serve to lead me to hesitate every time I reach for the cough syrup.
By the way I thank God for David Wilkerson
| 2011/3/9 18:23||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
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I believe that the principle taught in 1 Corinthians 8 concerning eating meat sacrificed to idols applies to this issue of drinking very well. In that chapter you have a conflict between those who were more or less ignorant and those who were more or less selfish.
Paul seems to sum up the conflict by saying that it's true that you have this higher knowledge and liberty to eat this meat but, notice what he then says. He encourages them to move up from their selfishness to a higher plane where they choose not to take their liberty from a heart of love.
The same principle can be found in chapter 9 where Paul talks about the rights that he has to be compensated or to have a family, etc... But then he drops the bomb in verse 12, "If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ." All Paul is concerned about is Christ's rights in him.
You can live on the "lawful" plane, claiming your rights, and your conscience won't get at you, but there is a higher plane the Spirit seeks to bring us to.
Also, here is something for your consideration that Paul West posted here some time ago in another thread about drinking;
The infamous gang here in America, the Mara-Salvatrucha 13, only lets its members go free if they become real, born-again Christians. Otherwise, the only way out of the gang is through death. But that's not it. They then secretly check up on the Christian ex-gang members to make sure they're "walking the walk" and are the real deal. This is done both in prison and on the streets. If the so-called "Christian" is later seen smoking a cigarette or drinking or doing drugs, he or she is executed. I'll let this speak for itself, as it is quite interesting considering the nature of the topic of this thread.
| 2011/3/9 19:15||Profile|
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I do not see having a drink as being in itself sinful or wrong, if absolutely nothing in your conscience bothers you about it before God.
That being said, I no longer drink for the sake of my personal testimony.
I've never heard of NOT drinking to be the ruin or stumbling block to another person that Christ died for.
However, as far as the opposite is concerned...
| 2011/3/9 20:09||Profile|
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It would do everyone in this thread well, I think, to heed the wisdom of Makrothumia. Amen to your post as well, Everest.
Paul Frederick West
| 2011/3/9 20:18||Profile|
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We tread on very thin ice to think our "personal opinion" is helpful. If one is sharing his opinion with others - is it truly "personal" anymore? The prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, whereas the fool delights in airing his opinions - especially the "personal" ones.
I had started posting in this thread and I got into a lengthy post and I realized that this is completely a waste of time. It's not even necessary. And I like the instruction above, it is a personal thing and it should be between you and God and it's not to flaunt the liberties that each person is able to do with those liberties.
Quote:Because just talking about (y)our 'personal' preferences is harming those on here that don't agree with (y)our liberties. In fact, those that had respect for certain posters may have just lost that respect.
Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
It's like seeing a man of God on stage speaking great and wonderful things of God and we have an admiration for him and his ministry and then we get to know him. We visit his home and he does things that are not counted as sin, but it raises an eyebrow or you kind of step back and see this man as not what you expected. It's the same thing here.
| 2011/3/9 22:11|
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We need a revival of true holiness that does not make excuse for sin. I agree with you mama. Alcohol or "spirits" is not the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone take something into their body that alters their minds and finally "stingeth like an adder"?
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again."
| 2011/3/10 0:17||Profile|
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If a christian thinks he or she has liberty to drink beer or wine they need to keep it to themselves. Why? lest you stumble one who is weaker in faith.
Also all things may be lawful but not all profit.
Just cuz you have liberty to do something dosen't mean you should.
Edit add, Also better be careful when you go to buy. Someone may see you and get stumbled.
We should care more about stumbling another with our "liberty" than excercising our liberty.
| 2011/3/10 6:43|
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This really is the final word on the subject:
Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Eating meat or drinking wine may or may not cause your brother to stumble. If you know your brother has a problem with you "eating meat" OR "drinking wine," don't do it around him or flaunt your liberty in the issue.
Romans 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
| 2011/3/10 8:16||Profile|
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As I read this thread it kind of peaked my interest, I use to be "Anti Alcohol" person and for myself I am still BUT I found in scripture that as some have already pointed out there is nothing forbiddening Alcohol but most certainly Drunkenness.
Look at wine and its used to describe and compared to some of the most beautiful things in Scripture, Solomon describes the Love of God as Better than Wine. Either that love isn't that impressive or Wine is an awesome thing to compare that awesome love to. We always look to the negative.
At Pentecost the 120 were accused of being drunk, why? because they had been Filled with the Spirit and were not only Speaking in many languages but were Joyful in doing so.
Paul tells Timothy, 1st Timothy 5:23 "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." Wine was and can still be used to aid the body, I have met many people that have had doctors prescribe a small glass of wine to their patients to help them relax and recieve aid from its properties.
Again I use to be a extremist when it came to alcohol and drinking but looking at the Bible exegetically we see it can have its advantages, people in Russia drink a small shot of Vodka everyday and they live to be the oldest generally up in the 100's.
KJ hit the nail on the head when he said the word "Moderation" Alcohol can be good but without Moderation it will lead to drunkenness.
| 2011/3/10 8:26||Profile|