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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : "Sipping Saints" by David Wilkerson

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flameoffire
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Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

I will get back to you on this. I have an article on it, but I have to dig it up. It contained scholarly citations and references, but while it was heavily anti-wine, the information it presented merely indicates that there were two types, without an entirely accurate way to discern which type is being talked about when.


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Jonathan

 2011/3/9 13:37Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
by flameoffire I will get back to you on this, the information it presented merely indicates that there were two types.



I believe you, I know there were two kinds some as grape juice, and this scripture pretty much tells bout the alcohol version."Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:17-18 (NKJV)
As long as I don't have a 300# Pastor, that eats 5...five course meals a day, telling me not to consume alcohol, I am ok with that, just don't be a hypocrite, because "most" everything is ok in moderation. I guess you could relate drunkenness to food also, you might feel ok, but your belly might feel drunk. lol


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Mr. Bill

 2011/3/9 13:47Profile
flameoffire
Member



Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
We tread on very thin ice to think our "personal opinion" is helpful. If one is sharing his opinion with others - is it truly "personal" anymore? The prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, whereas the fool delights in airing his opinions - especially the "personal" ones



I apologize; I may have posted foolishly. My hope was to bridge a gap by illustrating that this is a matter of conscience and describing the reasons for my own conviction on the matter. I did think it would be useful which might have been foolish or proud. Paul does give his "opinion" in regards to some matters in his letters stating that he did not have a command from the LORD (1 Corinthians 7:25). My earnest desire was not to contribute to division, but to contribute to understanding, which was one of the reasons I heavily qualified what I said. Thank you for your rebuke. I will earnestly pray about the wisdom or foolishness of what I posted previously.


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Jonathan

 2011/3/9 13:49Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 615
Texas

 Re:

Thank you for your gracious reply. I honestly did not have your post in mind for your post was graciously written and your intent to insure your thoughts were limited in scope were clear enough. I was seeking to capitalize on the word "personal" and did not mean to draw upon your use of the word in a way of reproof. Your humble response shows me you were not in need of reproof in this matter.

This topic simply provides a wonderful opportunity for us to learn not to be drawn into attempts to "convince" (latin for conquer with) others on matters where we have received instruction to not enter into dialogue. We must have faith that the Holy Spirit has been sent to reprove the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2011/3/9 14:02Profile
flameoffire
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Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

Thank you, makrothumia. You have been gracious. I should still be a slower to share my opinions.


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Jonathan

 2011/3/9 14:09Profile
mama27
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Joined: 2010/11/20
Posts: 1382


 Re:

I hesitate to reply because it seems that those who desire to live a holy and set-apart lifestyle, get trounced on on this site. I do not have the gift of debate. Nor do I have the time for the lengthy posts that so many seem able to do. But on reading the 2 Wilkerson articles originally posted, I have to say that I still whole-heartedly agree. I would be one to be jumped on for my "legalistic" stance here on this forum. However I am 58 years old, and I have walked with the Lord for 31 of those years. God HAS given just plain wisdom and common sense to people. Not to mention that there were at least 7 or 8 Scriptures quoted in the Sipping Saints article. The Holy Spirit in me tells me that in most every case drinking is wrong. I will not take on the 118 year old godly grandmother. There are many things that are spiritually discerned. And two points that would be in favor of avoiding alcohol would be 1)not causing a weaker brother to stumble (I would say there are MANY weaker brothers in our society with relation to drinking), and 2)also the point about avoiding even the appearance of evil. I know even as an unsaved young person in high school, I was SO disappointed to see the pastor of our youth group walking out of a liquor store with a bag - it just did not seem to "fit" with his station in life, or godly living. As I said, I do not have the gift of debate. But I have to wonder if so often in our culture, what used to be called "holiness" is now called "legalism", and if that is not the result of our depraved human nature that just does not want to be told what to do. Maybe, just maybe, many of us believers are desensitized by our culture that has such a heavy emphasis on grace. Please don't attack me - I am only sharing my heart, and I have prayed before I push "submit"....I respectfully disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine.

 2011/3/9 15:21Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
mama27 I respectfully disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine.



mama27, I would like to ask you a question, how many times have you seen a supernatural healing in person? Me personally I have never witnessed one, but I know and believe they happen. Here is my point, unless God decides to supernaturally heal or deliver us from our illnesses or bad habits after accepting him into our lives, we are still work in progress. We all must be real careful when we see Christians doing things that we may not agree with, unless you know their life story, because God may still be working on them. Matter fact he is working on all of us, "NONE" of us will be perfected until God calls us home. You said you fully disagree with those that say drinking is fine for the Christian, so are you telling me that the next day/month after someone accepts Christ in their life, that they don't fit in your world of thinking if they are still drinking? How do any of us know what is going on in anyone's life unless we have personally known this person for many years? For the record I am not condoning alcohol, matter fact if you read my post I said I personally don't drink, but I know Christians that are "work in progress" that do. Unless we are supernaturally healed or delivered immediately, we are considered work in progress, and we as Christians should not Judge these folks. Did Jesus "Judge" the woman at the well? I don't believe he did, he just told her go and sin no more. If we disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine, we should also disagree that, eating to much,spending to much,to much makeup,to much work, to much Judging, to much internet, to much exercise, is also wrong. I know you won't like this scripture, but God said it I didn't, 1 Timothy 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)Ephesians 5: 18 also refers to such a condition, that a person should avoid overusing wine to the extent that they would get drunk, it does not say a glass of wine every now and then they are wrong and will be cast into the lake of fire..


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Mr. Bill

 2011/3/9 15:58Profile
mama27
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Joined: 2010/11/20
Posts: 1382


 Re:

I knew I shouldn't have stepped into this....OF COURSE I AM NOT SAYING THAT!!! Of course we are ALL a work in progress. I personally have a problem with gluttony. However I am thin, and no one on earth would know it. But God knows it. I do not know HOW you got from my post that I am JUDGING ANYONE....I am NOT. I would love the social drinker, I would love the drunkard, I would love the drug abuser, I would have a harder time with it, but by God's grace I would love the porn addict, or the homosexual. Sin is sin in God's eyes. But when I read the Wilkerson articles, I felt that he was taking on a culture that has been on a slippery slope AWAY FROM HOLINESS for a long time. As well he should, and well should any Spirit-filled preacher who loves the Lord. Listen to a Keith Daniel message (I'm sorry I do not know which one) where he quotes the godliest man he ever knew (and I personally believe Keith Daniel to be one of the godliest men I have ever known)....He tells how this godly man from South Africa, Will MacFarlane is speaking. And someone who came to the meeting is standing at the back of the church and spouts out, "Is smoking wrong?". And Keith Daniel reports that this godly man who he never heard raise his voice, THUNDERED back to the man, "You KNOW it's wrong!!". Now is there a verse directly in the Bible that says, "Thou shalt not smoke?" I don't know of one. But there are principles that God gives us. And there are many verses speaking against strong drink, some of which were mentioned in the Wilkerson article. I do not have a problem with the verse you quoted because as you say, God said it. Maybe it applies to the 118 year old grandmother. But I do not think it aptly applies to social drinking.

I am sorry I spoke. I don't feel you were hearing my heart. The same thing happened to me when I spoke on the recent music thread against CCM. I was jumped on and basically called a legalist. I cannot argue my points. I have a lot of life going on right now, and I am not a theologian (who by the way, don't agree among themselves). Perhaps that is to my fault. But I KNOW what is right in my heart.

I believe it would be best if I only pray for the prayer requests that are brought up, and not comment on the issues. I unashamedly take a stand for holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Yes - we are all a work in progress. But I believe the culture has severely "dumbed down" the Christians.

 2011/3/9 16:19Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re:

mama, no harm no foul, I am not upset at you, and basically when I said you, I meant any Christian. This is just a debate and as we all know debate welcome opinions, right? I totally respect your views, and I am not Judging your views. We all, even Keith Daniel's have our personal views or opinions, but ultimately we must go with what the Word of God say's, I think we both can agree on that.


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Mr. Bill

 2011/3/9 16:26Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re:

I think this might be a good scripture for this debate. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


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Mr. Bill

 2011/3/9 16:29Profile





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