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 Re:

Do you feel that Revival has and can only come from Calvinists? That is basically what you are implying.
I'd recommend you do a Search on the forum here and see that we all get along very nicely together and don't feel the need to convert everyone who comes on to either side.

What you are saying sounds as though Methodists, Baptists or any like them, have never nor will ever see Revival.
Or is your idea of Revival, when everyone finally believes the 5 pts of Calvinism?

I did read your article and it was very biased.
Did you read mine?

Finney was more legalistic than even I could bear - when he said I'd have to give up my coffee - but I have others of his books and no one can say that man wasn't saved - and that's what you're saying, as well as your article.

Prayerfully, you'll get more aquainted with your surroundings and we can drop this discussion and allow those who appreciate the good things of Finney to be freely posted without a Calvinism vs whatever debate.

Welcome.

 2011/3/15 1:34
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Elowel...

I certainly appreciate your concern. It is important that we ALL "test everything" when we consider the words and examples of men and doctrines who have gone before us (or still live among us). This is extremely important and was reinforced to me when I met Brother Ravenhill as a teenager.

Brother Ravenhill reminded me that the Church is in the condition that it is in because the Church has been doing the things that it has been doing for so long. But, this is not ALL bad. There are some things that even a worldly congregation with flawed doctrines get right. After all, I Thessalonians 5:21 encourages us not only to test everything, but to HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD.

After all, I am NOT a "Calvinist." I largely reject the more extreme views of the more radical apologists for that particular ideology. Yet that doesn't mean that I reject ALL of the views and beliefs of advocates of Calvinism. While I may reject one or more of the specific "points" of those teachings, I think that there are some principles that are either true or on the right path toward something that I deem to be true.

I have read many accusations about what Finney may or may have believed. I realize that NONE of his books were actually penned by his own hand -- save his autobiography (which was penned at the end of his life). Most of what he supposedly believed was written down by others supposedly from their own notes of his lectures.

Unfortunately, we don't have Finney to speak with and verify any of those things. Moreover, we don't know exactly what he believed -- and how long he believed it. After all, many of us are not the same person that we were just a few years ago. Our walk with God is a journey. We sometimes reach the heights of spiritual and doctrinal mountains...and sometimes, we fall to the lowest of lows in the valley of the shadow of death.

Who knows what Finney actually believed other than Finney and God? Yet, I do not follow Finney. I certainly was blessed by his testimony and many points in his autobiography. I have read certain things that are attributed to him that I agree with as well. But, personally, I couldn't care less about WHAT Mr. Finney believed.

I suppose that this is one reason that I am not too keen on being influenced by books and messages that attempt to define my own doctrinal views. I have long felt that the Word of God is enough to form the doctrinal views that are vital or "essential" for believers. After all, churches and ministers -- including teachers -- are not supposed to be defining our views for us. They aren't indoctrination centers where we must adhere to a specific set of doctrinal peculiarities, save those that are undeniably essential to the faith.

I suppose that this is also why I abhor doctrines that are "tagged" by silly titles and monikers (like "the doctrine of substitutionary atonement"). Those titles are certainly extra-Biblical; Too often, I think, the specifics and required "dots and tittles" are as well.

By the way, some people who read and study Finney's "lectures" (that, again, he never penned himself) would argue that he certainly embraced the idea of being justified by faith and those things that you mentioned. Sure, he may not have seen them EXACTLY as you do. However, I suppose that we probably don't see them exactly eye-to-eye either. And I know the God whom I serve.

So, I advise others to avoid being carried away with an emphasis on Finney...or Spurgeon...Moody...or Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of the other man that some choose to place upon a pedestal. They are just men. None of them were perfect.

Anyway, these are just a few random thoughts on the matter. There are just so many more important things to focus on...because the time is short. Personally, I think that one of the hallmarks of a true revival will be when we take our eyes off of the men and the specific doctrinal peculiarities that often serve to divide the true Body of Christ by ideological "herding" and we place the fullness of our faith and hunger upon the person of Jesus Christ (the Word of God). The desire for an intimate relationship with the Creator of all things should motivate us to seek Him, find Him, and, once we have found Him, introduce Him to a lost and dying world (and broken "church").


_________________
Christopher

 2011/3/15 2:31Profile
looserchapel
Member



Joined: 2011/2/23
Posts: 58
Brest, France

 Re:

Quote:
I implore you. Check out the link in my first reply (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm)



Brother, I have read your article and I was astonished and shocked when I saw how harshly they (spurgeon.org) undermined and destroyed Finney's Testimony. For them (and I emphasize, for THEM) it seems that Finney has never been converted to begin with and he surely never won one single soul to Christ since he was "heretic". I urge you to listen to Keith Daniel's sermon (link below). It helped me to have a "comprehensive" grasp on the matter (calvinism or armianism) and I definitely agree with him

[url]http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31754&forum=35[/url]

ps: Spurgeon strongly disagreed with Finney on his theology, yet he never labelled him as heretic, the same goes for John Wesley


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Lalaina

 2011/3/15 3:27Profile
Elowel
Member



Joined: 2011/3/10
Posts: 33


 Re:

Quote:
Do you feel that Revival has and can only come from Calvinists? That is basically what you are implying.
I'd recommend you do a Search on the forum here and see that we all get along very nicely together and don't feel the need to convert everyone who comes on to either side.
What you are saying sounds as though Methodists, Baptists or any like them, have never nor will ever see Revival.

I disagree, that's not what I'm implying. I don't believe revival can only come from Calvinists, nor do I feel compelled to "convert" everyone to my own theology.

Quote:
Or is your idea of Revival, when everyone finally believes the 5 pts of Calvinism?

No, I don't believe that. Nor do I call myself Calvinist, but I do hold to doctrines of sovereign grace and disagree with Arminianism. However, that's not the issue here.

Quote:
I did read your article and it was very biased.
Did you read mine?

I did read your article, and it was very irrelevant. (:

Quote:
Finney was more legalistic than even I could bear - when he said I'd have to give up my coffee - but I have others of his books and no one can say that man wasn't saved - and that's what you're saying, as well as your article.

If he believed what he wrote in his Systematic Theology, then he wasn't. I've read through some of his autobiography, and I know how compelling it sounds--I was moved to tears, thinking, "Truly, this was a man of God." But a man of God doesn't think he is responsible for achieving salvation.

Quote:
Prayerfully, you'll get more aquainted with your surroundings and we can drop this discussion and allow those who appreciate the good things of Finney to be freely posted without a Calvinism vs whatever debate.

Welcome.

It's a privilege to be here.

I don't care about Arminianism. I know Leonard Ravenhill was an Arminian. I love Leonard Ravenhill. I was I had the privilege to meet him before he died. God has used his words to stir me to godliness in a way that I cannot begin to thank Him.

Again, as I have said before, this is an issue about departing from orthodox Christianity, not about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. You think I'm comparing apples of Calvinism to the oranges of Arminianism, but at least they're both fruit. I'm saying Finney is a fungus, not even a fruit to begin with. The issue is Pelagianism--heresy.

http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/horton.htm

Quote:
ps: Spurgeon strongly disagreed with Finney on his theology, yet he never labelled him as heretic, the same goes for John Wesley

Keith Green, a godly musician, promoted Finney as well; that doesn't change Finney's theology. They just didn't know.

Please don't regard me as another confused brother making a Calvinist vs. Arminian argument, that's not what this is. I love Calvinists and I love Arminians, those who truly know God. I look forward to spending time with both groups in eternity (especially Mr. Ravenhill) to the praise of God.

 2011/3/15 12:36Profile
Madefree
Member



Joined: 2010/11/7
Posts: 193
Alabama

 Re:

I speak this in love, and with great trepidation, but why is there a debate on a post that was meant for the edification of the saints? Why does someone post something that is to be a blessing stir up strife against one another? I would say this is not from the Lord.

I apologize in advance if I have said anything out of line or offensive towards you and your beliefs, but I have read Calvin and I have read Finney, I know both sides and there is really no reason to waste God's time arguing about it.

My humble opinion.

-Mike W.


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Mike Wright

 2011/3/15 15:39Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I speak this in love, and with great trepidation, but why is there a debate on a post that was meant for the edification of the saints? Why does someone post something that is to be a blessing stir up strife against one another? I would say this is not from the Lord.


You're right - it's not. This sort of thing has been the bane of these forums for a long while now. The wise person will avoid these disputatious discussions in lieu of his/her own relationship with God. The Holy Spirit will not let you continue long in them without a rebuke. We think we are doing the Lord's business in protecting our own coveted theological flag of allegiance, but in the end though we may win the argument, we ultimately suffer loss. Our maturity is stymied, our grace withers, unrest clouds our minds. And all for what? To win a tactical battle for the sake of our trophy "isms".

Often, the Lord will use the very men our theology will not allow Him to. They will be used tremendously, in spite of their faults or pathetic lack of light on some sacrosanct area of Christian dogma like the atonement or justification, and the Lord will use them deliberately to put to shame those who stand strong with correct doctrine. He does this to show us that there is something even more inportant than theological precision or positional correctness: transmitting Christ's love unto others here on earth. Finney loved God, and he loved sinners. John Wesley loved God, and he loved sinners. George Whitefield loved God, and he loved sinners. Savanarola loved God, and he loved sinners. God used them all in revival, indiscriminate of their theology, to show us He is after much more than hard, cold theology.

It is fine to have your own theology, and it is important for it to be correct, for it shapes your understanding of God and his dispensations of grace, love, correction; I believe in the absolute sovereignity of God to a degree that many here would be offended. But I am careful to not make an issue of it, to not let it harm my fellowship with other dear believers I respect and love and for whom Christ died. I am careful to not make my theology an idol, or a stumbling block, for I do not see any "ism" as being salvific in and of itself. Jesus Christ transcends "isms" and meets us right where we are, before we have a chance to study up and become theologically astute. This is what we should be going back to and mining for, for the pure personal gold of Christ not to be found in any Wesley devotion or Finney discourse or Spurgeon sermon. This is the sort of treasure that truly edifies, and that gives the believe something truly worthy to share with others of ternal consequence.

The deeper you go with God, and the more intimacy you gain, the more you begin to see God pulling you away from these types of inauspicious discussions and into the more serene waters of rest and quiet obedience. From this point you begin to see the merits of each: of Finney, of Wesley, of Spurgeon, of Nee, of the Pentecostals, of the Puritans, the Anabaptists, etc., and while others squabble on the ground over stale crumbs, you'll find yourself soaring from flower to flower to glean the nectar you need. Because, with the mind of Christ, you can learn much from the different men and women God used in the past - especially from the ones you disagree with the most.

Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2011/3/15 19:07Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Good words Paul.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2011/3/15 20:04Profile
Elowel
Member



Joined: 2011/3/10
Posts: 33


 Re:

Ravenhill, Wesley, Nee, Whitefield, Tozer, Spurgeon, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, Puritans... they still believed in the same core tenets of Christianity and we can have fellowship with all of them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXA5UOkLTyo)

But I cannot say the same for Finney; I can't group him with any of those people above. He preached a different Gospel. The information is in the links I've provided, and you can read his Systematic Theology for yourself. I'm aware that you're saying, "It doesn't matter what he believed, he was a man of God and he changed lives through revival," but did he really? See the "The Fallout from Finney's Doctrines."

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1:8-9

If I'm prideful, then please, pray that the Holy Spirit would discipline me harshly for any mean-spiritedness or arrogance in me. I'm just a sinner as Finney was, just as every other human being who isn't Jesus. The difference between me and Finney, however, is that he didn't believe that's true.

 2011/3/16 19:08Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

I have posted three articles below by Finney. Please friend, before you accuse anyone read them, then read Psalm 52 and heed the warnings therein.

http://firesofrevival.com/power/power07.htm

http://gospeltruth.net/1856OE/560730_the_atonement.htm

http://gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/lptc05_just_by_faith.htm

you can also get all of Finney'sermons on this website

http://gospeltruth.net/ot_nt_search_page.htm


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Fifi

 2011/3/16 20:02Profile
Elowel
Member



Joined: 2011/3/10
Posts: 33


 Re:

Quote:
I have posted three articles below by Finney. Please friend, before you accuse anyone read them, then read Psalm 52 and heed the warnings therein.

I have read the three articles, and Psalm 52. I will not deceive you, I read through them. Now, would you please graciously return the favor? After all, if I spent that time reading those texts, will you not do the same for me? I have something for you to read. Yes, it turns out people have already had this discussion on this forum! Read the whole thing for me without skimming too much, would you?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=2815&forum=34&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

Be discerning. If you want to know more:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Gaqa8Cr6Y

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." - Matthew 7:15

There is so much error these days, that false teaching is seriously one of my biggest fears and concerns, especially when I see how it has affected my own family, those around me, and evangelical churches in America.

It's possible that you are too convinced that you are right, and/or that I am too convinced that I am right for either of us to concede to an agreement. But this is not a minor issue like Calvinism vs. Arminianism, as I stated before. It's about the difference between a real saving faith and a false Gospel being taught by Finney. No, it's not like your salvation or my salvation is at stake, by the grace of God we have heard the words of real believers and believed the real Gospel. All I can say is that I don't recommend promoting Finney.

I say this all with love. You're still my brother. (:

 2011/3/17 18:47Profile





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