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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Workers Of Iniquity

I hope to start a discussion of Psalm 5:5.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I am trying to square the current trend of preaching God's love with what scripture says about who and what God hates. I hope we can make an accurate biblical contrast that will bring justice again to the full counsel of God in this matter. Few things are more important to our presentation of the Gospel than our understanding of this.

Some opening commentary:

Thou hatest all workers of iniquity
Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labour in it with all their might. These are the WORKERS of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty! (Adam Clarke)

God is a prayer-hearing God. Such he has always been, and he is still as ready to hear prayer as ever. The most encouraging principle of prayer, and the most powerful plea in prayer, is, to look upon him as our King and our God. David also prays to a sin-hating God. sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; fools of their own making. Wicked people hate God; justly are they hated of him, and this will be their endless misery and ruin. Let us learn the importance of truth and sincerity, in all the affairs of life. Liars and murderers resemble the devil, and are his children, therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his people. (Matthew Henry Concise)

Let those therefore who delight in sin know that God has no delight in them... (MH fragment)

"Those whom thou hatest thou shalt destroy;" particularly two sorts of sinners, who are here marked for destruction:-- [1.] Those that are fools, that speak leasing or lying, and that are deceitful. There is a particular emphasis laid on these sinners (Revelation 21:8), All liars, and (Psalms 22:15), Whosoever loves and makes a lie; nothing is more contrary than this, and therefore nothing more hateful to the God of truth. [2.] Those that are cruel: Thou wilt abhor the bloody man; for inhumanity is no less contrary, no less hateful, to the God of mercy, whom mercy pleases. Liars and murderers are in a particular manner said to resemble the devil and to be his children, and therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his church, men perfectly lost to all virtue and honour; and the worse they are the surer we may be of their ruin in due time.

It is a stanza that will not find itself in any modern hymns, long or short that I am aware of. Yet, this Psalm was no doubt sang as a reminder of God's position on sin and impenitent sinners.


Let the search for truth begin and may we prayerfully search out the fullness of the plurality of God's greatness and majesty that we may draw near to a right representation and presentation of Him in every situation and to every people.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/17 8:21Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Workers Of Iniquity


Brother Robert ...

No reflection on you, but when i first read your thread the first thing that popped up in my head was, "I hate that we saints do so much dissection of the Word, but not much doing" ...

2Tim.3
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jas.1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


You quoted'
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity".


i guess it's ok for God Himself to hate the workers of iniquity, even tho i don't think His hatred of them is out of angry emotion as debased as our own fallen human nature ... i know that God is love, and so i think His hatred of the workers of iniquity is based out of the pain He feels that they choose to be vessels of His wrath, instead of vessels of His mercy, because it pains Him that any of us should choose to be relegated to an existence of eternal fiery torment in Hell ...

But i'm very well aware as a Christian that i don't have the option of hating the sinner, but only the sin that the workers of iniquity commit, for i was once one of them, and even tho now saved my own self righteousness is STILL as but filthy rags, as it is only my being drenched in the righteousness of Christ that justifies me, and frees me from self or satan's continued condemnation of me, because by faith i now that there is no condemnation is Christ ... So i thank God for Jesus, ask the Holy Ghost to ever keep me mindful and empowered to witness, pray for and love the sinner, all the while hating and rebuking the sin which we all know boils down to satan, which is why we're told in Ephesians that our battle is not against the sinner, but the force behind sin ... If we saints of God could ever get to getting our eyes off of "flesh and blood" as the objects of our hatred, and on to "powers, principalities and spiritual wickedness in high and low places" we could turn this world upside down! ... That's why i pray for Revival so much, for the Church of Christ is in difinite need of His eyesalve to open up our vision into the spiritual realm, as we're obviously blinded by the natural ... i'm sorry to run on so, but Christ is definitely doing a new work in me and it just comes out ...

Below is something i ran across on the web ...


THE CHRISTIAN’S HATE LIFE

by Dr. Jack Hyles

Pastor, First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana


What should the Christian hate? He should hate what God hates.

1. He should hate quitting ...
Psalm 101:3, “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.”

2. He should hate every false way ...
Psalm 119:104, “Through Thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” When someone says a person can go to Heaven by good works, the Christian should hate it. Now he should not hate the person who says it but he should hate the false way. When someone says that one can go to Heaven by taking of the sacraments, joining the church, or getting baptized, the Christian should find hatred swelling in his heart for the false way. There is no way to love God’s way to Heaven without hating Satan’s false ways to Heaven.

3. He should hate empty ritual ...
Amos 5:21, “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.”

4. He should hate an evil heart against his neighbors ...
Zechariah 8:17, “And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.”

5. He should hate lying ...
Psalm 119:163, “I hate and abhor lying: but Thy law doI love.”

6. He should hate idolatry ...
Jeremiah 44:4,5, “Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their hearts to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense to other gods.”

7. He should hate vain thoughts ...
Psalm 119:113, “I hate vain thoughts but thy law do I love.”



8. He should hate a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood ...
Proverbs 6:16-19, “These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him:
- a proud look,
- a lying tongue,
- and hands that shed innocent blood,
- an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
- feet that be swift in running to mischief,
- a false witness that speaketh lies,
- and he that soweth discord among the brethren.

9. He should hate the narcotics which is ruining our young people.

10 . He should hate the liquor which destroys so many lives and homes.

11. He should hate communism which is dedicated to the destruction of our Christian society.

12. He should hate the atheism and humanism that is pervading our college campuses.

13. He should hate the nudity that is destroying our morals.

14. He should hate the permissiveness which is ruining our youth.

15. He should hate the adult bookstores, the sensitivity parlors, the dirty movie industry.

16. He should especially hate the sin of his own life that causes he and God so much heartache.

Yes, the Christian does have a hate life ... because God does! (end) ....


May all we saints of God allow the Holy Spirit a continual and constant examination of ourselves to a conviction of hate for sin period! ... beginning with our own lives first ... Amen

 2004/11/17 9:29Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Rahman,

I am hoping to come to terms with our presentation of the Gospel as it pertains to communicating with the unrepentant.

So often we hear, "God loves you, God loves you, etc." and yet the person trodds that love under foot and goes away (apparently) thinking they are in no real danger because, after all, "God loves me."

The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/17 10:11Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:



Brother Robert you wrote;
"The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners"?


What has happened? ... The way i see it is, "Ear tickling from the pulpit to the laity in trade for the laity's mammon back to the pulpit" ... In my own church circle an emphasis on what was once concidered hell fire preaching is shunned, and replaced by an emphasis on "sweet Jesus", "Jesus Claus", and "Christ Genie" ... The emphasis now is on the giving Christ, instead of what the sinner/saint has to give up ... Such saints concieved in such one sided preaching produces weak, always needy, weepy tossed to and fro, retarded Christians ... Read all of the OT prophets and they'll show us all the results of what happens when anyone hasn't the proper fear of God ...


When i witness to an unsaved one first i tell them a Genesis synopsis of the why we need salvation, and God's how to attain it from this scripture .....

John.3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Then what such a true repentance will free us from in our submitting to Christ ...

Eph.2
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph.5
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Then what our rejection of Christ condemns us to, namely God's wrath ...

John.3
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Then the actual eternal sentence one must serve if he dies in his unrepentance ...

Rev.20
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev.21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


After which point i've had many say, "You're trying to scare me"! ... At which point i acknowledge,
"Duhhhhhh ... do you think"! ... with this scripture ...

Prov.1
[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Then i just point blank let em know that without a pure, true and Spirit led repentance to, and acknowledgment of Christ as their only means of salvation, they're staring in the face an eternity in hell where the flame is ever constant, and the worm dieth not, to contemplate their foolishness ...

Well brother Robert in so many cases today an individual witness in this manner to the unsaved is frowned upon, let alone being fired from a pulpit with any relevant constancy ... It's just not popular with the masses ... God draws men by the fishermans hook of Jesus Christ, but He cares, gets and keeps us in line by the Shepherd's crook of Jesus Christ ... i think too many preachers today are lopsided with the saving grace hook of Christ, while neglecting His crook, and it shows in the ineffectiveness of His Church ...

God help us ... and I know He will ... Amen

 2004/11/17 12:14Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners?



This is an important topic. I believe that in order for impenitent sinners to fully understand their condition they need to see how God reacts to sin. Verses like Psalm 5:5 and Romans 1:18 are useful in presenting His reaction to sin;

[i]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/i]
(Romans 1:18)

A problem comes when fallen human minds have a hard time understanding words like 'hate' and 'wrath' as having to do with anything other than some emotional outburst of rage. We need to make it clear that, as a compass points to the north, so God's settled reaction to sin is the outpouring and unfolding of His wrath. He doesn't look upon sin, He doesn't wink at sin, he can't abide sin. Until an impenitent sinner understands this he is in a most perilous place.

I believe this is an important part of using the law in bringing an awareness of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As Allistar Begg has put it, you have to lay down the black velvet of the law before you bring out the diamond of grace through Jesus Christ. Too many people are walking around showing off diamonds without ever laying down the velvet.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/11/17 12:45Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Wow brother Ron this is good ...

"I believe this is an important part of using the law in bringing an awareness of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As Allistar Begg has put it, you have to lay down the black velvet of the law before you bring out the diamond of grace through Jesus Christ. Too many people are walking around showing off diamonds without ever laying down the velvet".

... although i've never thought of the Law as velvet ... The Law (to me) puts me to mind of the burlap potato sack underwear my mom told me that she and her siblings had to wear during/after the Great Depression ... most uncomfortable ...

But man are you right, sinners are being made to feel comfortable via grace before being made uncomfortable by an understanding of the condemnation of the Law, therefore no real appreciation for the Means, Giver and consequences of grace ...

Thanks!

 2004/11/17 13:16Profile









 Re:

Hey Brother Robert,

Great thread. I brought up alot of these very same things in "The Anger of the Lord" artical.

Heres a few quotes from that artical that state my say on the whole thing.

"“God is love” is a message we have all heard countless times. “God is love” and “God loves you” is preached so often that I think maybe some churches don’t have any other messages. Everybody from saints to sinners absolutely love to hear this message. Politicians, prostitutes, and every type of pleasure pursuer delight in the message that “God is love”. However there is another message that the bible has which is not so well received among sinful men. That message is that “God is angry”. These two messages are not opposed one to the other as some people assume. They are two sides to the same coin. The biblical truth that “God is love” and “God is angry” are so tightly connected that I do not believe you can remove them from each other. It is not the one or the other as I can see how some may believe. Rather, because God loves godliness, He is angry when ungodliness is committed. Because God loves righteousness, He is angry when unrighteousness is committed. Because God loves the truth, He is angered when lies are taught. His love is the source of His holiness, His justice, and His anger."

And then in a different place:

"We seem to have it all wrong today! What can the current church do with a scripture like Ps 5:5 that says “God hates all workers of iniquity” considering modern messages? We say “God hates sin but loves the sinner.” So what do you do with Ps 5:5? It certainly throws a wrench into our theological gears. Leonard Ravenhill said in an interview right before he died “the menace of many of our meetings is; we are trying to get people saved who don’t know their lost. ‘Come forward. The Lord loves you. The Lord loves you.’ The Lord hates you! Instead of a bumper stick ‘God loves you’, ‘God is angry with the wicked everyday’ (Ps 7:11) or ‘The wicked shall be turned into hell.’ (Ps 9:17)” That is what a man of God said after roughly 70 years of being in the ministry. No one can deny his experience, so there are some important truths to learn from that quote.

I only wish that I could begin to explain the mysteries of God, but I cannot adequately do so. As large ships need large rivers to sail through and can not move in small rivers, the fullness of the truth of God can not be fully comprehended by our shallow minds. Let me appeal to men greater then I to help us understand. In C. H Spurgeon’s “A Treasury of David” he has a quote from William Gurnall for Ps 5:5. William Gurnall (author of Christian in Complete Armor) wrote this, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.’ For what God thinks of sin, see Deut vii. 22; Prov. vi.16; Rev. ii. 6,15; where he expresseth his detestation and hatred of it, from which hatred proceeds all those direful plagues and judgments thundered from the fiery mouth of his most holy law against it; nay, not only the work, but worker also of iniquity becomes the object of his hatred.”

Spurgeon also put a quote from David Clarkson, B.D. 1621-1686, in his commentaries who said, “Those whom the Lord hates must perish. But he hates impenitent sinners, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Now, who are so properly workers of iniquity as those who are so eager at it that they will not leave this work, though they be in danger to perish for it? Christ puts it out of doubt. The workers of iniquity must perish. Luke xiii. 27. Those whom the Lord will tear in his wrath must perish with a witness; but those whom he hates, he tears &c. Job xvi. 8. What more due to such impenitent sinners than hatred! What more proper than wrath, since they treasure up wrath? Rom ii. Will he entertain those in the bosom of love whom his soul hates? No; destruction is their portion. Prov. Xxi. 15. If all the curses of the law, all the threatening of the gospel, all the judgments in earth or in hell, will be the ruin of him, he must perish. If the Lord’s arm be strong enough to wound him dead, he must die. Psalms lxviii. 21…… Avoid all that Christ hates. If you love, approve, entertain that which is hateful to Christ, how can he love you? What is that which Christ hates? The psalmist (Psalm xlv. 7) tells us, making it one of Christ’s attributes, to hate wickedness…. as Christ hates iniquity, so the ‘workers of iniquity." You must not love them, so as to be intimate with them, delight in the company of evil doers, openly profane, scorners of godliness, obstructers of the power of it. 2 Cor. vi. 14-18. If you love so near relations to wicked men, Christ will have no relation to you. If you would have communion with Christ in sweet acts of love, you must have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, or those that act them.”

 2004/11/17 13:54
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We need to make it clear that, as a compass points to the north, so God's settled reaction to sin is the outpouring and unfolding of His wrath.



It is a most difficult topic I know. I have often felt that the wrath was generated from the betrayal of the great love that He has for His creation. For example, let a person find their spouse in a compromising way and love can change to wrath quickly.

I think it is interesting to note that Jesus wept over Jerusalem (a city) and John 3:16 reads "For God so loved the world..." World is the Greek word Kosmos.

When we read in Proverbs of the 7 things God's hates there are hands, feet, etc. mentioned; but what is the extent of the hatred there. Does it extend only to the offending member or the one who was yielding their members as instruments of unrighteousness?

My desire is not to try to prove that God hates anyone; but we have to account for Esau and these afore mentioned passages in our understanding of God's love. As it stands these passages are anomolies to our theologies that don't get dealt with. We need to know biblically how God is perceiving the sinful world in which we live in terms of individuals. Good news makes no sense without the backdrop of a bad situation. Yet, when we declare God's wrath we offset it with his love to the very same sinner. :-? We tell a man the law has declared Him guilty before God and he is in danger of Hell fire and then tell him God loves him unconditionally. Then we wonder why the person is content to keep on sinning.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/17 13:55Profile









 Re:

ps. Heres a link to the artical I mentioned: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=13692

 2004/11/17 13:58
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Brother Robert,

i think i've jumped to quick regarding my statement about dissecting the Word, for brother Ron's statement has answered a question for me that had puzzled me for some time ...

A while back my church sponsored a "Home Buyers" seminar in our annex bldg (which we older saints treat with the same respect as the sanctuary) ... In the midst of a class one young Christian woman answered a question in which she unabashedly volunteered that she lived with her boyfriend ... i was amazed that she'd said such a thing without the slightest hint of conviction ... Then another young sister uttered a phrase out of her mouth making use of street terminology regarding male & female sexual anotomy, that had to be addressed by one of the ministers in the class, but even so she still couldn't see that no such talk should come forth out of a child of God's mouth, because she said she was just keeping it real ... Then there's the puzzle of how so many young saints can identify themselves as Hip Hop Christians, and it's all because they've not been made to understand their sinful condition prior to, or in conjunction with their being told about the saving grace of Christ ... They in essence don't know any better, which is why they don't even try to hide such sin ... It's all ok, Christ understands is all they initially heard, and all they're still hearing now, except by the likes of such saints appalled by such ignorance in Christ, who get labled legalist sticks in the mud...

We really, really do needs God help, and like Joel states it's got to start in the pulpit first, or we'll never have solemn assemblies ... Please God, convict your annointed, that You may convict us all by their mouths ... Amen

 2004/11/17 14:07Profile





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