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docs
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 A quick thought on the abomination

“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. (Matthew 24:15-16)

I was speaking with someone over the weekend and we were speaking of the prophecies in Daniel and in particular Daniel chapter nine. I said that I'm coming to believe even more that Daniel's recorded prophecy regarding the seventy weeks and the time of the Messiah's first coming (Daniel 9:25) etc. has got to be among the greatest prophecies of the Old Testament. Its accuracy for the number of years until the Messiah is nothing short of astounding! I said also that many believe (I'm not sure how many) that Daniel's prophecy of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27) which Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:15 was fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes when he desecrated the temple. So the person said then why was Jesus still speaking of it as a future event ("when you see") about 200 years after Antiochus. I had never quite thought of it that way. Of course it still had to be future if Jesus was speaking of it so long after Antiochus! Then some say Titus' armies and their destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (another abomination) fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel completely. But the context in which Jesus speaks in Matthew 24:15 to the end of the chapter ends up with the coming of the Son of man for the second time so the events surrounding the armies of Titus and their destructon of Jerusalem and the temple (another abomination) still couldn't have exhaustively fulfilled the prophecy. The events set off by the final and ultimate abomination usher in events that lead to the second coming. How am I doing here? I'm not trying to tweak anyone, I'm just a futurist on these things and that person's comments over the weekend got me thinking again of these things. I believe in the multiple fulfillment of prophecies in many cases. The events of 70 A.D. may have been close but the final fulfillment of the prophecy is ahead in my opinion. Comments welcome of course but if you're not inclined that's okay too.

Thanks.


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David Winter

 2011/2/10 7:20Profile
ginnyrose
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 Re: A quick thought on the abomination

Interesting question, docs.

Regarding this fulfillment when Titus overtook Jerusalem, it is said that when Titus besieged Jerusalem he withdrew one day and the Christians took advantage of it and fled, remembering Jesus words 'to flee'.

Moreover, I would be inclined to believe this refers to the time when the temple was destroyed by Titus because it destroyed the 'holy place' that was inside the temple.

"Abomination of desolation": someone has described this as the abomination that makes desolate. Interesting definition. If you want to spiritualize it you could say that many modern churches today have abominations in the holy place (pulpits) that is desolating.

My thoughts at the moment...not all that profound, I admit. It will be interesting to hear others' comments.


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Sandra Miller

 2011/2/10 7:50Profile









 Re:

You're right on the multiple fulfillments, docs. Much of Hebrew prophecy is pattern. The abomination of desolation has already happened a few times, and will happen again, leading up to an ultimate fulfillment. Interesting topic for sure though.

 2011/2/10 8:16









 Re:


Must agree on multiple fulfillments,(sometimes more than we realize, elsewhere as well) because if HE hadn't - our Bibles would be far too large to carry around with us.
I think we limit GOD to our own intellects if we limit either OT or NT prophecies to just one event.
But the main closing point of Daniel is that the book was to be sealed until the time of the end - and 'then' it would be opened up to that generation - which it is.
Not the case with our classic commentators of old.

 2011/2/10 8:33









 Re:

Quote:
But the main closing point of Daniel is that the book was to be sealed until the time of the end - and 'then' it would be opened up to that generation



Exactly. Things get clearer as we get closer.

 2011/2/10 9:00
sidadm
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Joined: 2011/2/7
Posts: 31


 Re:

Matt 24:15

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

What is the "Holy Place", today?

Whoso readeth, let him understand.

 2011/2/10 12:32Profile
docs
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 Re: What is the "Holy Place", today?

I hope I'm not over assuming here but you may be referring to the fact that the church is now the temple or dwelling place of God. It's not like Christians who believe that a temple will likely be rebuilt have forgotten that the church is the temple of God or the Holy Place if you will. It's just that many believe that the Jews will attempt to rebuild a temple as prophecy transitions towards its climax. Christians who believe this wouldn't be rejoicing because the Jews would have returned to a Judaistic temple. It's just that in the end time scenario it would be an important marking point as seen from a non allegorical view of biblical prophecy.


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David Winter

 2011/2/10 15:05Profile
sidadm
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 Re:

I don't think a physical temple is going to be rebuilt.

One of the big problems is the Mosque of Omar. Remove that and you have 150 million Arabs converging on you.

True Judaism is not even practiced today because there is no temple, altar, sacrifice, etc. It is a conglomeration of Kabbala, Midrash, Talmud, Mishna, Halacha, etc.

Old Testament Judaism has been so watered down that I don't think there would by any consensus to rebuild the Temple because they would have to agree to jettison all their extra beliefs and return to the Mosaic law. But, even the Pharisees had their traditions that they added, so who knows.

My own opinion is that it ain't happening and we should look closer to "home", to understand what the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place is.

For years and years there has been talk about some farmer in Mississippi that is supplying the religious Jews in Israel with unblemished red heifers, that some Jewish religious leaders have already picked out the cornerstone of the temple and instruments to be used in the temple. I think that all of this "plays" into Christian Zionists world view and view of scriptures and makes for continued donations from them to Israel and that once again(based on history), much of Christendom will be deceived regarding the Lord and His coming. And for that matter, much of Christendom will be deceived concerning the Antichrist. In fact, they will receive him into their hearts and that alone could be the Abomination of Desolation, to receive the antichrist into your heart (the holy place).

But these "christians" have already received the spirit of the world.

It does need to be at least briefly stated, however, that the “temple” being measured in Revelation 11 is not the physical one that the Jews will rebuild. It is speaking of the New Testament Church (or Body of Christ), which is referred to in numerous places by the apostle Paul as the “Temple of the Lord” (I Cor. 3:17; Eph. 2:20-22).

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 11:31

Today, I would say that the sanctuary of strength is our heart and the daily sacrifice is our life lived unto Jesus, each day. The abomination that maketh desolate is that which replaces the Lord in our hearts.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Lord is speaking of a very great deception, here.

Really interested in other opinions because I don't know a whole lot more about the AofD.

 2011/2/10 18:08Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Everestosama(interesting name)
I have to agree with you on the prophecy pattern.Some prophesy have a simple fulfillment and some have a pattern.
This correct view in my opinion does not be used when it comes to understanding the end times which is ashame as it has so much to teach us.

Thanks Staff

 2011/2/10 19:10Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: On the abomination of desolation being interpreted allegorically

This reply is addressed mainly to sidadm.

Quote:
I don't think a physical temple is going to be rebuilt.

One of the big problems is the Mosque of Omar. Remove thatand you have 150 million Arabs converging on you.

True Judaism is not even practiced because there is no temple, altar, sacrifice, etc. It is a conglomeration of Kasbbia, Midrash, Talmud, Mishna, Halaha, etc.Oldf Testament Judaism has been so watered down that I don't think there would be any consensus to rebuild the Temple because they would have to agree to jettison all thier extra beliefs and return to the Mosaic law. But, even the Pharisees had their traditions that they added, so who knows.



Me: There would be a lot that would have to happen before a temple could be rebuilt. I acknowledge that. You point out many obstacles and they are there but like you also said, who knows. It was also commonly believed for centuries by church theologians that the Jews would never return to the holy land but against all obstacles and predictions they have. Perhaps the growing international pressure on Israel to conform to the world's wishes regarding the land and growing anti-semitism raising its head again may begin to exert even more pressure on them that will cause a deeper soul searching on their part and may cause them to think again of their old religion. Perhaps another regional war with unacceptable Jewish casaulties would have the same effect. And who is to say that a type of peace won't eventually come into play that will allow both Muslims and Jews to worship on the same vicinity without replacing the Mosque of Omar. I'm speculating but lots of events could bring this about just as unforeseen events brought about the return of the Jews to Palestine.

Quote:
My own opinion is that it ain't happening and we shoulod look closer to "home', to understand what the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place is. For years and years there has been talk about some farmer in Mississippi that is supplying the religious Jews in Israel with unblemished red heifers, that some Jewsih religiouds leadres have already picked out the cornerstone of the temple and instruments to be used in the temple. I think that all of this "plays" into Christian Zionists world view and view of scriptures and makes for continued donations from them to Israel and that once again(based on history), much of Christendom will be deceived regarding the Lord and His coming. And for that matter, much of Christendom will be deceived concerning the Antichrist. In fact, they will receive him into their hearts and that alone could be the Abomination of Desolation, to receive the antichrist into your heart (the holy place).

But these "christians" have already received the spirit of the world.



Me: I've heard those same things and who knows what will come of all that but what concerns me even more is the growing trend of "Zionism bashing" in the evangelical world. That's part of what I see as part of the growing international pressure on Israel that is going to grow. Part of this pressure will come from the Christian world. In my view, it's hard to see why Christians should be given the negative label of "Christian Zionists" just because they believe the Jews would one day return to the holy land. This new wave of Zionist bashers and authors are making sophisticated arguments against the prophetic signifigance of modern Israel (which they deny entirely) but in their efforts to lead people away from error they are leading people into a deepr error which denies any prophetic significance whatsoever to modern Israel. And it seems if one has any beliefs reagarding modern Israel that one is automatically labelled a dispensationalist and that is not true either. Far from it.

Quote:
It does need to be at least briefly stated, however, that the “temple” being measured in Revelation 11 is not the physical one that the Jews will rebuild. It is speaking of the New Testament Church (or Body of Christ), which is referred to in numerous places by the apostle Paul as the “Temple of the Lord” (I Cor. 3:17; Eph. 2:20-22).



Me: The verses in Rev 11:1-2 use the same Greek word ("naos") for temple that is used elsewhere to describe the church as the temple or dwelling place of God. But the scene here in Rev 11 is in my opinion not designating the church as the dwelling place but the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. We know that because of the command to not measure the court outside the temple and this lets us know it is the Jewish temple in Jerusalem being referred to.

Quote:
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 11:31

Today, I would say that the sanctuary of strength is our heart and the daily sacrifice is our life lived unto Jesus, each day. The abomination that maketh desolate is that which replaces the Lord in our hearts.



Me: The verse right before, Daniel 11:30, says,

"For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened, and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant."

What happens in verse 30 is what causes the events in verse 31. So how does the ships of Kittim coming aganst him etc. figure into things replacing the Lord in our hearts? What are the ships of Kittim and the rest of verse 30 represenative of? I only mention this because I believe allegorization of biblical prophecy has been taken too far. I believe this hermeneutic method many times destroys any literal intent and meaning that the original inspired writer intended.

Quote:
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Lord is speaking of a very great deception, here.



Me: Yes he is speaking of great deception here. Thankfully concerning these things he said, "Behold, I have told you in advance." Practiced and clear discernment will be needed in those days.

Quote:
Really interested in other opinions because I don't know a whole lot more about the AofD.



Me: If I've acted like a know it all I realy didn't mean it that way. I've looked into eschatology in recent years and found it sobering with a capital S but it can be encouraging also. God is going to correct if needed and guide His church through the times of the end and there's much to unify everyone still in spite of the differences. I just have come down on a more literal side regarding unfulfilled prophecy because I think history bears out literal fulfillment of prophecy until now.

John Calvin commenting on Hosea 1:10-11

The Book of the Prophet Hosea

10 – Yet the number of the sons of Israel will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered; and it will come about that where it was said to them, “You are not My people,” it will be said to them, “You are the sons of the living God.”

11 – And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and they will go up from the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

"For so long a time has passed away since their [the sons of Israel’s] exile, and…since there has been no restoration of this people, it is certain that this prophecy ought not to be restricted to seed according to the flesh. For there was a prescribed time for the Jews, when the Lord purposed to restore them to their country; and, at the end of seventy years, a free return was granted them by Cyrus. Then Hosea spoke not here of the kingdom of Israel, but of the Church, which was to be restored by a return, composed of both Jews and of Gentiles." (John Calvin)

Me: "since there has been no restoration of this people" is what catches my attention in this commentary. There may not have been a restoration of the Jewish people to the land in the days of Calvin but here has been during these times. Against all predictions and obstacles and "Israel has been forever replaced" theology. A literal Israel doesn't seem to be as far out of the picture as many have advocated over the centuries. Nothing is impossible for God and the unfolding of prophecy. Like one noted theologian said, "Why can't a literal fulfillment of prophecy be the most spiritual fulfillment of all?"

Thank you and blessings to you.




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David Winter

 2011/2/14 14:57Profile





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