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 Re:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 makes it so clear (edit: what a church's response to this should be that is- not about question that is title of thread):

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."


By not actually removing a professing Christian in open sin from a fellowship the message is being given to everyone that you can live in sin and yet still be saved in the end. Yet the Bible is clear that to join with Christ and the people of God one must forsake the pleasures of sin (Hebrews 11:25-26, John 3:18-21). God is clear in His word that one cannot have both. Pleasure in unrighteousness hinders one from really believing the truth and results in damnation (2 Thess. 2:13 makes clear). Living in sin is actually a rejection of the grace of God, because the grace of God is given to us to deliver us from our sins to truly serve God.


Titus 2:11-14: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."


The New Testament epistles where grace is constantly emphasized also constantly warn that those who continue in sin will not inherit God's kingdom. Sexual sin is particularly (among other sins) warned against as a work of the flesh that will bring damnation. The story Appolus shared shows how a fellowship putting one in open sin out will show the person that their sin is grievous to God and MUST be repented of. "Must" is the key word. If that had not been done, the man he spoke of would have thought that "he won." Yet not letting him win was the most loving thing to do, as obeying God's word always is.

Ephesians 5:5-6: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Galatians 5:19-21: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Do we take the word of God seriously?

 2011/2/2 1:57
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re: To smite or not to smite

There's been a lot of great advice in this thread. I'm also going through a similar situation in my family. A husband has left a wife and 4 kids with little to no warning. Turns out he had a girlfriend with which he had an apartment that he was paying for. He was paying for this and spending time there while he was supposedly working late. He was also paying for this while his own household fell into enormous debt. He basically spent all the money on this woman and neglected to pay any of his bills.

It's something out of a soap opera and not a Christian home. Being that he was and is a professed Christian I took the general stand that we should take with a Christian. This is what most have stated in that I'm not having anything to do with him, and am asking that my wife, who has known him far longer than myself, have no contact with him. I've prayed 1 Corithians 5:5 over him. The outcome that we must seek is reconciliation. All of the "shunning" and hard words and tough love is for one reason. That reason is to have them restored to right relationship with God.

This situation has caused me to re-evaluate my position on divorce and salvation. As far as the salvation issue goes with the original poster and myself. If you're Calvanist, they were never saved. If you're Arminian then they have lost their salvation. Someone mentioned darkness and light not occupying the same space and this is a great example. Sin was also mentioned as having to be strived against.

I think striving against sin is the problem, but not the way you all may think. I don't think that we should strive against sin as much as press in to God. If God saved us without our help He can deliver us from sin as well and does. The Apostle Paul called people foolish who would believe that they were saved through grace and yet delivered from sin through their own efforts.

This is the maybe the greatest evil in the church today. We are told in many churches that we shouldn't drink because we'll do stupid things and be unhappy. True, but then you stumble and realize that doing stupid things can actually make you happy. It may only be for a season, but by the time you figure it out you've gone a long way from where you started. The drinking thing is only an example of the humanistic, selfish and narcissistic religion of the day. Whether you're the young son or the old son in the parable of the prodigal. If you're the young son the fun of sin will turn to grief and if you're the older son the pride of your efforts will turn to a self-centered view of the world. And that's the problem in sin. The problem isn't the drinking. The problem is pride, selfishness and rebellion. When we are saved we are purged of these things and so we don't sin. Not that we will never do these things, but we will not as a life style.

In my situation I think that we have an example of an older son who said all the right things and even DID all the right things. The problem is that from the beginning the Right Thing was never in him. He was in himself and it was about him, even the good things. It was the outside in life of an unbeliever and not the inside out life of a believer. An unbeliever does good things to make themselves feel better, get better or get better stuff. A believer who has been regenerated by the power of the blood of Christ has been made better, has been made to feel better, and has been GIVEN the best thing. His life is a reflection of that.

If the church does not correct its approach to the Gospel and sin these situations are only going to become more common. We preach against sin as if sin is the issue. Sin is the roadsign for a heart that has strayed. Sin is the result of rebellion to God. Jesus saves us from our sins. Jesus saves, not us. Preach Jesus and love your neighbor as yourself. As for me, I've done some terrible things to wife in the past and hurt her tremendously. What I needed and what she gave me was a stone wall that said, "You can repent or you can go away." Praise God that if we repent He WILL forgive us our sins. This should be our response to these people. I love you, but in that love I'll have nothing to do with you. If you repent though, there are welcoming arms waiting for you.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2011/2/2 9:02Profile
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: This discipline is to severe

Since Growingone has so adequately applied scripture correctly for this occasion, maybe this should be shared with the Pastor and Elders as they may have temporarily lost all senses and forgotten such scriptures exist.

This will be my last entry on this thread as Growingone has presented the word of God so that worldly logic is exposed for what it is.

I would however like to exit giving an extreme critique of those who compromise scripture governing in the flesh by one who also discerns and evaluates from the flesh. Flesh to flesh or should I say the results of the blind leading the blind.

How will this woman bear such painful correction as has been placed upon her by this Pastor? Does this Pastor not realize the toll this will take upon this dear woman? Has he no feelings? What will become of her now that her right to vote within the congregation has been confiscated? I cannot imagine the shame this woman must bear as she sits amongst the brethern and partakes of the body and blood of Christ. Thank God that she has the saints beside her to console such a grievous loss. How does she sleep at night knowing that when the church comes to vote on whether to increase the fund for janitorial services that her vote that could be very well the deciding vote will be left out? I must admit that had this form of correction conjured up by this pastor been exercised in the earlier church, how different scripture might have been on this subject. Oh that he were there to instruct and counsel the apostles and equip the Church with such an effective instruction. We know God to be all knowing but maybe just maybe......no I will not go there.

May God's word be followed in love and fear.

 2011/2/2 9:40Profile
restinhim
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 30


 Re:

Unfortunately, the tithe governs a lot of actions or lack of actions in the tithing church. And it governs what is preached, because you don't want to offend those who pay the bills. You may not like this, but it is true.

We need to quit adjusting the Word and adjust to it, instead.

 2011/2/2 9:44Profile









 Re: To smite or not to smite

Quote:
How will this woman bear such painful correction as has been placed upon her by this Pastor? Does this Pastor not realize the toll this will take upon this dear woman? Has he no feelings? What will become of her now that her right to vote within the congregation has been confiscated? I cannot imagine the shame this woman must bear as she sits amongst the brethern and partakes of the body and blood of Christ. Thank God that she has the saints beside her to console such a grievous loss. How does she sleep at night knowing that when the church comes to vote on whether to increase the fund for janitorial services that her vote that could be very well the deciding vote will be left out? I must admit that had this form of correction conjured up by this pastor been exercised in the earlier church, how different scripture might have been on this subject. Oh that he were there to instruct and counsel the apostles and equip the Church with such an effective instruction. We know God to be all knowing but maybe just maybe......no I will not go there.

Hi lylewise,

Are you serious?

The comments I've quoted don't seem to accord with your post at the start of p2.

 2011/2/2 12:15
wedied
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 22


 Re:

I think he is being sarcastic, ATG.

 2011/2/2 12:27Profile





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