| Re: thoughts of the obvious|
I have a similar situation in my family. I know the biblical precedent for the body and I would mention a couple of things since we are now in a similar situation.
If you were in sin how would you want others to treat you? To love you and affirm you in it so that it becomes comfortable and you harden your heart to God? Or would you desire that they do whatever possible to bring you to your senses even at the sake of them having to separate themselves from you for what ever time it took?
For those who do not disfellowship a brother or sister who will not turn from their sin, what do they do with the aspect of leaven teaching. Does not God teach us over and over that a little leaven (sin) affects the whole batch? It does not say a few but all! What of our little children and the babes who will be taught that light and darkness can indeed coexist, that is if we allow the one practicing sin to be apart of the fellowship? Does maintaining the company of one practicing sin not also teach others it is OK to do likewise?
The trend today is to live and let live. Tolerance is the order of the day in which we live and it has crept into the church just as it is in society. To not judge at all even though scripture requires us to for the health of ourselves as well as the body. God desires the bride he will present to His Son to be pure and sanctified. She will pure and sanctified by God but will we work towards this process or against it. If agaisnt it then we oppose the very God we love?
| 2011/2/1 0:35||Profile|
| Re: |
^^^ Ravenhill and Walker preached about cheap grace.
| 2011/2/1 5:25||Profile|
| Re: To smite or not to smite|
This is a very interesting thread I must admit :). I am saddened by it for the fallen sister but at the same time am reminded of my sin and so I must drop my stone that my flesh so willing wishes to cast. I say that not to say that others posting on this thread are casting stones though. I believe there are some good answers to the question. In regards to the two that Lied in the New Testament and were killed on spot I believe the reason for this was they lied not only to the Apostles but to the Holy Spirit and this lie wasn't to show modesty but to gain some Honor of their own and we find God doesn't share His Honor or His Glory.
As for how to deal with the lady, don't deal with her at all God will take care of it. May I ask when you were dead in your trespasses in Sin did you prefer God smiting you or showing you mercy? If this woman is professing Christianity but is clearly not a christian then she is already condemned and doesn't need more Judgment but Grace. The Word says "It's the Kindness of God that leads us to repentance"
I understand standing up for Righteousnessake but if we pay attention to our beloved beattitudes the very next beattitude is blessed are the Meriful. We recently had a dear family friend do something very similar with a very violent man. She was blind and stumbled as we all are prone to do. We warned her and warned her but always let her know that we are always there for her when she was ready to return to Christ. We were a constant testimony against her actions and she finally felt conviction for her action and is in the process of repentance. She was likely to remain in her situation or been more prone to if she thought her Christian friends and family were just so very angry with her, we weren't angry but some of us were hurt and so we expressed this to her lovingly.
God's people are like Sandpaper when applied properly can be used for great good but when we become over zealous and too coarse we will do more harm than good. Let the Lord do the buffeting and remain a faithful witness of God's loving Kindness to those that turn to Him in this ladies case turn BACK to Him.
| 2011/2/1 5:49||Profile|
| Re: |
Oh, you were speaking of another.
In that case, it seems to me that this person has forgotten the loveliness of Jesus. Usually this happens when law is preached over the pulpit. OR the person never had an encounter with God to begin with.
And what happens is this, we THINK we need something more than what is found in Christ, so we set out to self-provide. That is called idolatry. The adultery in the physical is not the problem, the spiritual adultery of providing for self is the problem. And she thinks she needs something that God has not intended for her.
you know, Paul was accused of preaching to much Grace. How can you preach to much Grace? You can preach false Grace though.
| 2011/2/1 9:12||Profile|
| Re: Leaven?|
So shall we disregard scripture and pursue our own logic (which by the way is the logic of the world) We cast them out as scripture so clearly instructs. Not because we want to execute discipline but as a parent who loves his child. We look to the long term. The problem today is no one wants to discipline their children. Who wants to raise a hand to their child as it is more painful for the one having to discipline than the one receiving it. We do what is hard because we love. Scripture says one who does not discipline their child hates him. How then do you argue with God in this regard. His ways are not the ways of the world as they run contrary to what the natural man holds to. So when the Lord looks to present His glorious Son with a beautiful bride should we not follow His instructions on how to maintain her purity until the day of consummation?
Once again we are talking about one who is in the body of fellowship who calls himself or in this case herself a Christian. There should already be a loving relationship of fellowship with this person. This person should have previously known and enjoyed the common oneness in Christ with those in fellowship. If this be the case the appeal to separate will be difficult for both parties. Those having to exercise disfellowship and the one who must be cast out. It is done to bring that one to experience the loss of what they prize so earnestly if indeed they are saved. God being first in their life is not evident by their life style. God does not desire that they be comforted by their fellow saints when this person values sin more than God. This separation from Him is not OK. Neither is this spiritual separation form the fellow saints OK. If one is practicing sin then the body is now entertaining a dead member in fellowship. They are no longer good for themselves or their fellow saints. They are detrimental to all. What unity do they participate in if they serve the flesh amongst those who Love God foremost and above all things. Shall they rebel against their first love to be comforted by their second (the saints). No! Scripture is clear and pristine on this matter. So much so that even those who are not born again and yet call themselves Christian should likewise be cast out so that they may not assume and receive assurance of what does not exist (false assurance of salvation).
Once again, it is done in love. Why do people not understand this? What culture does is from a logic not born of God. Therefore we must not succumb to worldly logic but to to the word of the lamb who gives His life for the church. The flesh of those who fellowshipped with Christ did not want Him to go to the cross. Why ? They wanted Him to spare Himself the pain that He would suffer on behalf of others.
If we all suffer because of a brother or sisters transgression so be it, but lets not avoid it to keep the peace. Our goal is that they be brought back into right relationship, which should be the most important thing in their life though sin desires they forsake it for its fleeting pleasure. It is good to maintain communication with the so as to point them back to their first love. It is wrong however to expose the body to those who practice sin. What they hold to and practice can spread and infect it adversely. God has taught this so many times in scripture! Do we now question the instruction?
Someone please appeal to the Leaven aspect of this situation, for the love of God, and secondly for the love of the body.
| 2011/2/1 12:02||Profile|
| Re: |
A church that I attended for almost ten years had to deal with a very difficult situation involving an associate pastor. He had been unfaithful to his wife with another woman in the church although very few of those details were released or discussed. He had been confronted by the elders and the Pastors and remained beligerant. The pastor took the difficult decision to remove him not only from his position but also from the church and asked that no one in the church fellowship with him. Obviously there was all kinds of emotions and " camps," within the church. Yet, let me tell you of the sheer joy, when two months later this man, this broken man came before the congregation and openly confessed his sin and begged forigiveness, which was readliy and joyfully given. I think the strongest person in the whole story was his wife who had not only suffered the pain of adultery, but also the public humiliation. She, to me, was a true warrior for Christ. Yet we see here the beauty of following the Word of God. Many things may change as the decades and centuries roll on, attitudes and customs and taboos, yet praise God His Word never changes and is as powerful, when followed ,as it was the day that it was written.........brother Frank
| 2011/2/1 12:42|
| Re: To smite or not to smite|
Is it wrong to say that she ought to be expelled form the fellowship in accordance with the scriptures quoted by ginnyrose? There has to be a striving for purity and accountability among the believers and if someone is in rebellion and refuses to listen to the elders, there ought ot be church discipline (Mt 18:16-18). It will either put her to shame and lead to repentance and restoration, or it will remove her and be a part of a purification process for the church. I know that no such "harshness" is praticed nowadays but it is scriptural and would have kept many churches from self-destroying from the inside out.
Edited to say I hadn't read page 2 before posting. A person should pray for that woman that it will turn out for her as for the pastorin Apollus's story. Thanks for sharing this!
| 2011/2/1 18:58||Profile|
| Re: |
^^^Our pastor has taken away her privileges to vote on church issues and attend church business meetings but she is still welcome to sit and listen to sermons whenever she wants. For me I'm indifferent to that decision.
Sexual sin is almost put on a different shelf than any other sin. It penetrates bone marrow and it entangles the two spirits together. The effects can scar ones soul for a lifetime.
| 2011/2/1 21:31||Profile|
| Re: |
Does he still accept her tithe?
Zac Poonen says that the CFC churches put a sign on their collection basket at the back of the church and it says, "if you have ought against your brother, God does not want your offering and neither do we".
| 2011/2/1 22:30||Profile|
| 2011/2/2 0:04||Profile|