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blandina
Member



Joined: 2011/1/25
Posts: 48


 Re:

sorry Sermonindex,

I posted, not knowing that you had posted.

I still don't see where anyone is against godly leadership.

I think those are false assumptions. People have clearly delineated between godly and ungodly leadership.

I just don't want to be mischaracterized or have words put into my mouth.

 2011/1/28 14:26Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Greg said,

Quote:
I don't find it a bad word for the fact that nature itself teaches that there is authority. Authority and submission is a theme in marriage, in the Godhead and in the Church.



Hi Greg: You're referring above to Dr. Graham's reference to "laymen," and the clergy/laity distinction.

By saying earlier that I found it sad to see Graham use the word laymen, I guess I'm the one who took this thread in a different direction than the original poster intended.

Sorry for that... but please let me emphasize that to take a stand against the clergy/laity division is not to stand against authority.

Far from it. It's just the KIND of authority-- and the true credential for authority-- that is being called in question.

What is the definition of laity? Well, what is the definition of clergy? Someone trained in a Bible school who has earned a certificate of some kind that gives him "authority" in a church. Does that mean that I or someone else who has no such certificate... we are excluded from a place of authority in the church?

Well, yes, that's what it means, if you have the denominational churches in mind.

But what of those who throughout the history of the church never saw the inside of a Bible school-- and whose authority consisted only of the anointing? One of your favourites, George Fox, for example. He cried against the clergy/laity distinction. Yet what authority he had! Where did he get it from? But these days he'd be called just a "lay" brother, because without that certificate he wouldn't qualify for a position of real authority.

And there are many others as well.

You mentioned the husband/wife example of authority. But dear brother... I am not my wife's clergyman. We are "heirs together of the grace of life." Yes, there is a divinely established order. But it's one of life, not of office. And that's how true authority is to be expressed in the churches.

...Anyway, dear brother, I know where you're at these days, I believe you will just have to walk it out till you're able to acknowledge that some of us who decry the clergy/laity system-- in which are many wonderful men and women of God at this time-- we aren't being what you call just individualistic and rebellious north Americans... who refuse to submit to God-ordained authority.

In any case, I'll comply with your wishes not to pursue this direction further here.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2011/1/28 15:30Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

sermonindex wrote:

Quote:
Brothers, I feel this topic of discussion is going off from the original posts of the thread and would ask in the future that we try and stay on the topic of the first thread. To me it is very clear in early church history that there was delegated authority in place, bishops were setup and sometimes in an area there was just one bishop (overseer). It is an error to say that bishops are just older brothers that is a mistake and lack of taking all the verses in context.



brother Greg, I did not think the issue of clergy/laity was a detraction from the OP since brother Graham mentions the rejection of the current institution of the church.

In any case, I will comply with your request not to post on that subject here.


_________________
Oracio

 2011/1/28 16:04Profile









 Re:

Nope. Not broken yet.

The vessel must be broken first before the sweet aroma can escape - and that goes for all of us and The LORD 'will' do it - if not tomorrow - eventually.

Shepherds have sheep dogs.

These dogs can sometimes smell or sense a danger that the shepherd, being 'human' cannot detect for one reason or another. Possibly because he can't be every where at once and doesn't have eyes around his head like GOD does. So GOD gives THE BODY gifts of all sorts that it may operate as One Body and none above another in His eyes, except for the vessel's brokeness.

If the sheep dog scatters the sheep because that dog senses a problem that the shepherd can't see - for whatever reason - the shepherd has two choices at that point - get rid of the dog, beat it or wait and see why the dog did that.
He may just find that the dog had not only saved the life of his sheep but also caused the shepherd to run after the sheep, from a danger to himself.

That is how the Holy Spirit works in His Body. He'll use "the least of these His Brethren" to work through to bark. He is not a respecter of persons. He sees everything and will use even a person that's been born-again just yesterday to bark.

That is the difference in where our "authority" comes from, in a Holy Spirit operating gathering of His Saints, with All the gifts operating, as HE wills. Bless Jesus!

If the shepherd sees it as mutiny on the Bounty, he's lost perspective of The BODY of Christ and His multiple giftings to her.

Pray one for another.

 2011/1/28 16:14
blandina
Member



Joined: 2011/1/25
Posts: 48


 Re:

Oh my, I hope I did not stir anything up. I did not know this site endorsed clergy/laity. I was only going by what I read in the Welcome and Intro section and was excited at the prospect of meeting others who held to these things.

Specifically:

"SermonIndex desires to be a expression of the apostolic church found in Scriptures."

"Biblical truth.....is the emphasis which is foundational for the ministry".

"We hold to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, as the inspired word of God."


"It is a place to share, discuss, listen, think and grow into all things in Jesus Christ."

"It is bible based."

"It is a seeking after the genuine and Sincere."


"It is this foundation and focus while fostering a great freedom of discussion within some practical guidelines."
(great freedom of discussion?)

"To be in the midst of some very experienced saints, not a handful who have walked with the Lord for many, many years." (the young ones can tell us a thing or two, also).

"You may have your theology turned inside out and upside down." (yes, but theology of whose choosing?)

"We must keep well in mind that expression of spiritual matters is often difficult enough, sometimes even impossible. Let us bear with one another with patience and understanding." (I do agree with that).

I did like this part below and hope we can really prove it out.

Jesus is Lord.
'We' do hold to a high view of His Majesty.
'We' have no particular creed other than that He be exalted above all.

It all sounded so very good. I will just read for awhile to see how "undenominational" this site is. That is one thing you also said in the Welcome section. "We are undenominational".

 2011/1/28 16:21Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Jesus-is-God, very good word.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2011/1/28 16:30Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: Discipleship

deleted


_________________
Allan Halton

 2011/1/28 18:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"You may have your theology turned inside out and upside down." (yes, but theology of whose choosing?)

It would be well to leave off this questioning of Sermon Index.

Sufficient to say that this site is dedicated to Revival and the vintage preaching of the word of God that is hardly heard across our lands today.

The theology of whose choosing is really up to us. We pick the sermons that we want to hear and read the articles that we want to read. We have an opportunity to post in the forums.

Lets leave the foundational work of this site to those that God has given the burden too. We in turn use it, participate in it and continue enjoying the many resources here.

 2011/1/28 19:18





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